[Richard White]

Operators, just like everyone else, can still be pissed off when they see people not paying for something they should be paying for. They know they can’t do anything about, but it doesn’t mean they don’t care.

Agreed.

My father did care that people were not paying at first then when his superiors stopped supporting his efforts to enforce the fares he gave up caring.

He used to park the bus until someone paid and call for a supervisor. He even publicly shamed a few people until they did as well.

When he retired, they told him to carry on driving as it was not worth the hassle.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

Agreed.

My father did care that people were not paying at first then when his superiors stopped supporting his efforts to enforce the fares he gave up caring.

He used to park the bus until someone paid and call for a supervisor. He even publicly shamed a few people until they did as well.

When he retired, they told him to carry on driving as it was not worth the hassle.

Exact same with my Father. Drove from '74 to '06.

 

[Richard White]

Exact same with my Father. Drove from '74 to '06.

My father was out of Birchmount from 1989 to 2004, the Eglinton from 2004 to 2006 and back to Birchmount after that

 

[Amare]

Northern Light said:
Kids riding free encourages fare evasion by teens.

They are in the habit of not paying, its difficult to break.

The age at which payment is supposed to begin, is one difficult to distinguish from the age when one is free, and neither age (12/13) is required to, or likely to carry photo ID.

I’m glad you said this. Talk to any operator and this is exactly why they hate this initiative.

This is exactly the issue at play here, and I knew this was going to be an issue ever since John Tory launched the stupid initiative.

It's teens who are milking the policy by "fibbing" their age, and claiming that they are younger than they really are so that they dont have to pay. This isnt a recent phenomena, when I was younger i'll fully admit I did the same thing so I could continue using children fares. As did most kids around my age at that time as well.

The TTC is bleeding money from fare evasion, and the problem is exasperated by this kids ride free policy since you have 13, 14, 15, 16 year olds fully exploiting the system. If you have kids who dont have to pay a single cent, expect a bigger crowed to evade fares and not pay anything.

The same thing happened when the TTC had children under 12 pay; a lot of kids would just dump whatever change into the fare booth and hope that operators wouldnt count it and call them out. Now that Presto is a thing, that wouldnt be as big a problem today and they would actually be able to recover a significant amount of money as the TTC would be collecting full payments through Presto payment machines.

John Tory screwed this city more than many people think, and created a policy that no one has the guts to get rid of.

 

[zang]

I realized you hate me; but its a bad look on you to everyone else that you're so antagonistic all

No I don't have kids

I have niece who I took on transit plenty, and I was a kid; and this math question and a public policy question not a you get points for having kids question.

So, no, you don't have kids and aren't personally aware of the financial pressures that having kids puts on even modest income families. Got it.

That's nice.

Now, if your daughter enters on a another child's pass (free) and is confronted by transit enforcement she can claim to have no ID on her......and there is no enforcement option, and therefore enforcement doesn't even try.

And? Someone can find a lost presto card and use it for their own use. This is a ridiculous straw man argument.

Show me proof (with costing) that teens masquerading as children or evading fares are any kind of a serious problem.

If you have a $120,000 per year in household income you do not require discounts, most particularly discounts that are the exact same if you earned 1/2 as much, or 1/4 as much.

Is there some kind of base progressive cost of raising children I don't know about? Because, I think most parents would really like to know.

~$300k over the first 17 years to raise a kid, in Canada, on average. Not including any savings for post-secondary education. And that's the national average, not the costs of living in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

Just as an aside, I really hate when childless adults try and school parents on what they do or do not need.

There is very little evidence that it significantly increased ridership among low income parents.

I bet there's lots of evidence that low-income parents could afford to do other things however.

There is evidence it increased ridership among children of all demographics.

Please supply proof that it's caused massive fare evasion.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

High schools in the GTA should issue a PRESTO for the students (if they don't have one), at no cost, but in their home room or office. Get the students to fill out their forms as part of the school registration. Process it. If they have a PRESTO card already, then they don't get one. Then within a month, the home room teacher hands out the PRESTO card. Come October or November, start the enforcement.

 

[nfitz]

Kids riding free encourages fare evasion by teens.

Bull. And even if true, not the kids fault.

I see as many adults evading fares. Is that too because kids are free?

Also kids rarely go more than a handful of stops by themselves. But they should pay enough money to go for an hour ride?

The money involved was peanuts - what was the loss when they did it - $5 million? So about a 2¢ student/adult fare increase. It's literally a rounding error. And that doesn't include the saved costs on eliminating the extra work to have yet another class of tickets, passes, etc.

 

[nfitz]

My daughter, who is literally turning 13 this week, has had a children's presto card for two years. We were given notification it will stop functioning as an unpaid pass on her birthday, and in order to receive student discount it needs to be renewed with identification. There is no cost to do so, just proof of age required.

It's not hard to enforce free fares by requiring adult accompaniment or a children's presto pass. Of all the parents of my daughters friends however, I only know one couple who let their sub-13 year old travel on the TTC by themselves, and they only did so a month before that kid's 13th birthday.

Congrats! My youngest turned 13, two weeks ago! And the card flipped to an adult. So I got it reset to a student at Shoppers Drug Mart (but they didn't ask for any ID, even though I had it with me ... nor did Metrolinx ask for any when I first got it).

He's had it since he was 4! We developed a little problem back then, as he took to taking off running as soon as you tapped at a fare line, leaving you trapped on the other side! So we got the card, to let him tap - and the "problem" went away.

He certainly was riding by himself - I don't see the big deal if he's walking home from school by himself. Heck, it's probably safer! As were his friends, because since Grade 6 or so, they used to go a couple of stops to the nearest park to play soccer at lunch hour. I certainly see lots of kids that age, and younger, going home on streetcar ... for very few stops normally.

I suppose it might depend where you live - though 506 hardly has the most stellar reputation. In my experience the suburban routes - even on the big arteries, were very quiet and tame compared to the streetcars.

 

[zang]

Congrats! My youngest turned 13, two weeks ago! And the card flipped to an adult. So I got it reset to a student at Shoppers Drug Mart (but they didn't ask for any ID, even though I had it with me ... nor did Metrolinx ask for any when I first got it).

Congrats yourself! Apparently some elementary schools will issue photo id for students if required, but I've just been assuming her BC will pass. We'll find out in a few days I guess.

He's had it since he was 4! We developed a little problem back then, as he took to taking off running as soon as you tapped at a fare line, leaving you trapped on the other side! So we got the card, to let him tap - and the "problem" went away.

We're the opposite; a daughter who was more than likely to lag behind to check out the spider she just saw, or to oogle a storefront. We weren't aware of the kids pass for a long time; at least not until she was of an age (11) where there was some ambiguity, so there was never a problem getting onto rides. She's always been encouraged to tap, even though she knows she doesn't *really* need to.

He certainly was riding by himself - I don't see the big deal if he's walking home from school by himself. Heck, it's probably safer! As were his friends, because since Grade 6 or so, they used to go a couple of stops to the nearest park to play soccer at lunch hour. I certainly see lots of kids that age, and younger, going home on streetcar ... for very few stops normally.

Our daughter is pretty mature and was allowed to sign herself out of her afterschool care at age 11 during her last month there, but we've never lived less than about a km away from either her junior or senior public schools. She hasn't felt ready yet to venture onto the subway by herself yet; though we've been trying to encourage it. I feel it's coming though; as her best friend moved up to the Davisville area last year and she misses hanging out with her as often. As well an awesome maker spot that she'd love to go to on a regular basis.

I suppose it might depend where you live - though 506 hardly has the most stellar reputation. In my experience the suburban routes - even on the big arteries, were very quiet and tame compared to the streetcars.

Well, that's the thing. We're within a stone's throw of Yonge & Bloor.

 

[Steve X]

I’m pretty sure half the “kids” I see have gone through puberty and don’t qualify for free rides. Unless they are going through puberty a lot younger now. Who knows. Who wants to argue with kids these days. There are murderers who still qualify for free riders now.

 

[81-717]

Is that too because kids are free?

Quite possible.

Also kids rarely go more than a handful of stops by themselves. But they should pay enough money to go for an hour ride?

Or you can, you know, walk those couple of stops instead. Aside from encouraging fare evasion, one of the main complaints of this initiative is that buses get packed full with large groups of students only going a couple stops. Distance-based fares generally don't apply to local transit, if any other demographic wanted to ride 1 stop a few 100 meters, they'd get charged their full respective fare too.

 

[Northern Light]

Bull

First, you're wrong and have zero evidence to support you supposition, which you concede immediately following with the words 'even if true'.

There is no call for making a statement in a form that you, yourself know is unsubstantiated and unlikely to be true, and is also aggressive in posture, where i haven't been at all aggressive with you (you're on ignore for the very reason that you tend to post this way)

. And even if true, not the kids fault.

At no point did I suggest it was 'the kids' fault in respect of young children; fault is irrelevant.

I didn't suggest penalizing children, I suggested that everyone should be treated equally and pay an identification fare.

The issue is not one of penalizing any group; its about delivering the most cost-efficient version of fare collection in order to reinvest in whatever combination of lower fares across the board or better service.

I see as many adults evading fares. Is that too because kids are free?

Why ask a silly question like that? The point of charging everyone an identical fare has many discrete benefits including much simpler administration, lower costs, and higher revenue collection per passenger, along with discouraging fare evasion.

It is not persecuting children or their parents to ask that they pay the same far for occupying the same seat as anyone else.

The savings here can be used to lower adult fares both on a per fare basis and through fare capping which lower your fare, and your spouses fare, at least partially offsetting the costs of any increase in your child's fare.

Would you come out at a net loss? In the absence of new subsidy, probably.

But you're a relatively affluent person who can afford that.

However, I'm not opposed to considering additional subsidy to get adult fares a bit lower still.

Also kids rarely go more than a handful of stops by themselves. But they should pay enough money to go for an hour ride?

1) When was 9, I was taking TTC 90m each way to school each day, and then on Fridays I went home to feed the cats before TTC'ing downtown to meet my parents for dinner. So some kids use the TTC much more extensively.

2) This isn't about kids, and your and Zang's obsession with that makes no sense. I proposed removing seniors fare concessions as well, and those for uni/college students and teens etc. The benefits don't accrue from a minor rationalization of fare structure, the accrue from a total rationalization of fare structure (including eliminating all cash fares).

That's what generates the $$ for more service and lower fares.

The money involved was peanuts - what was the loss when they did it - $5 million?

It was 8 million at the time, inflation adjusted it would be about 11.5M today.

If the alternative were restoring child fares at their previous level.

That is not my proposal. I believe, subject to reinvestments in lower adult fares, charging children, adult fares would likely result in a net take of around 30M per year.

But when applied to teens and post-sec. students and seniors, the number exceeds 100M per year by a fair bit. Its difficult to say, because I lack all the historical fare elasticity data, including the cohort/fare-class breakdowns.

Though I have some data allowing for some extrapolation.

Do take that with a grain of salt, because the calculation, while informed is very back of the envelope.

So about a 2¢ student/adult fare increase. It's literally a rounding error. And that doesn't include the saved costs on eliminating the extra work to have yet another class of tickets, passes, etc.

See above.

 

[zang]

I’m pretty sure half the “kids” I see have gone through puberty and don’t qualify for free rides. Unless they are going through puberty a lot younger now. Who knows. Who wants to argue with kids these days.

Yes, kids are going through puberty younger.

There are murderers who still qualify for free riders now.

Huh?

 

[nfitz]

Congrats yourself! Apparently some elementary schools will issue photo id for students if required, but I've just been assuming her BC will pass. We'll find out in a few days I guess.

TDSB schools will issue a non-photo card for elementary students on request. And high school kids get photo cards.

We never bothered as he looks significantly younger than 13, even now. My older kid looked much older; could have passed for 16 at 13, and we did get that card.

We're the opposite; a daughter who was more than likely to lag behind to check out the spider she just saw, or to oogle a storefront.

Ah, I knew a kid like that once; she needed someone with eyes on her during field trips. And often had some strange creature with her by the end. Somehow once, she appears to have left a complete strangers Health card lying around our house; lord know how she picked that up. That was interesting explanation when I took it over to them!!

We weren't aware of the kids pass for a long time; at least not until she was of an age (11) where there was some ambiguity, so there was never a problem getting onto rides.

It's always been completely optional. Most parents didn't have them, and in subway station you are supposed to just tap through the accessible gate with them, so it doesn't close too fast.

Our daughter is pretty mature and was allowed to sign herself out of her afterschool care at age 11 during her last month there, but we've never lived less than about a km away from either her junior or senior public schools. She hasn't felt ready yet to venture onto the subway by herself yet

Lol - they are all different. My almost 18-year old only has recently started venturing out on the subway and GO alone! I'm not she ever would have, if she hadn't have had years of transit riding with her parents (which she associated with her parents ... ). She's only just started to realise the freedom! Times change since I was a kid, took the subway everywhere at age 13 (my brother at 11; siblings at 8 for school!). And used our non-photo ID in bars at 16.

I’m pretty sure half the “kids” I see have gone through puberty and don’t qualify for free rides. Unless they are going through puberty a lot younger now. Who knows. Who wants to argue with kids these days. There are murderers who still qualify for free riders now.

I'm pretty sure some of the adults I see getting free rides have gone through puberty too. And really, how many 40-year old have student cards - they are pointless without a pass anyhow - except on GO.

Quite possible.

Oh good grief. Why would we not want to encourage kids to start a life of transit, for an almost-trivial rounding error on the budget. We saw a big ridership increase when we did that. It was a great move from the right-wing of council.

Or you can, you know, walk those couple of stops instead.

They do much of the time. Sometimes it's 3 or 4 stops if they want to get some lunch at Gerrard Square.

Aside from encouraging fare evasion, one of the main complaints of this initiative is that buses get packed full with large groups of students only going a couple stops.

I've never really noticed this. And it invariably happens outside of peak. The occasional school trip perhaps - though it was the wait forever while they sorted out payment that was the problem, not the overcrowding (which wasn't so much overcrowding, as crush load - I've seen worse at rush-hour.

Now what I have noticed is this happening outside of high schools with almost every kid tapping, and the driver verbally bullying those that don't tap.

You are looking for a problem in search of a solution.

 

[zang]

Quite possible.

Yeah, sure. Adults are following kids' example. Okay.

Or you can, you know, walk those couple of stops instead. Aside from encouraging fare evasion, one of the main complaints of this initiative is that buses get packed full with large groups of students only going a couple stops. Distance-based fares generally don't apply to local transit, if any other demographic wanted to ride 1 stop a few 100 meters, they'd get charged their full respective fare too.

So, buses are "packed" for a handful of stops with kids? Is it just roving waves of ambiguously-aged short-run teenagers packing the King Streetcar from nearly end to end? C'mon.

And again, "free" only counts for age 12 and younger. 13+ still have to pay a (albeit reduced) fare.