[Northern Light]

We're almost duplicating the crisis that Philadelphia's SEPTA is facing. Dated September 20, 2024.


See https://usa.streetsblog.org/2024/09/20/doom-loop-alert-transit-systems-are-suffering-and-too-many-are-cutting-service

---

Dated September 6, 2025...

Full SEPTA service to be restored Sept. 14, if state approves agency’s request to dip into maintenance funds​

A roughly 21% fare hike will also go into effect that day.​

See https://whyy.org/articles/septa-service-restored-september-14-maintenance-funding/

There is no crisis.

Don't believe everything you read.

There is 'budget pressure' every single year w/o exception.

Its always an exaggerated number; its based on a zero tax increase, a zero fare increase, and typically, high-ish estimates for volatiles costs like fuel (this is reasonable, as you wouldn't want to be short of money for this).

But there is no cliff. Just choices.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I’m glad you said this. Talk to any operator and this is exactly why they hate this initiative.

Operators have no incentive to care if the passengers pay.

 

[zang]

Kids riding free encourages fare evasion by teens.

They are in the habit of not paying, its difficult to break.

Kids 12 and under who are free also get in the habit of using the TTC, period.

The age at which payment is supposed to begin, is one difficult to distinguish from the age when one is free, and neither age (12/13) is required to, or likely to carry photo ID.

Do you have kids? I'm guessing not.

My daughter, who is literally turning 13 this week, has had a children's presto card for two years. We were given notification it will stop functioning as an unpaid pass on her birthday, and in order to receive student discount it needs to be renewed with identification. There is no cost to do so, just proof of age required.

It's not hard to enforce free fares by requiring adult accompaniment or a children's presto pass. Of all the parents of my daughters friends however, I only know one couple who let their sub-13 year old travel on the TTC by themselves, and they only did so a month before that kid's 13th birthday.

And for that matter, I have seen obvious non-pass holding teens claiming they're 12 get booted off streetcars because they didn't have accompanying adults with them.

12 and under is free is cost in-efficient, and since it goes equally to the rich as to lower income folks its not redistributive.

Like there isn't any kind of difference between a childless couple making $120,000/yr and a couple with one or more kids making $120,000. Daycare alone cost us $900/month; and we fully recognize that was not expensive.

2/3 and under is free is fine, if you're in a stroller on a parent's lap.

Otherwise eliminating age concession of all types is ideal (the savings can be used to lower adult fares if desired)

"ideal" in a world where only other people have kids, right?

It results in lower fare evasion, greater enforcement, and is much cheaper to administer.

Proof? Because there's that line where parents can claim their 4 or 5 year old is really 3 and get them in for free.

It's hardly the only change the TTC requires, but it would be a good one.

It's a terrible one; that does nothing but discourages low income parents from using the TTC at all.

 

[APTA-2048]

Operators have no incentive to care if the passengers pay.

Operators, just like everyone else, can still be pissed off when they see people not paying for something they should be paying for. They know they can’t do anything about, but it doesn’t mean they don’t care.

 

[Richard White]

Kids riding free encourages fare evasion by teens.

They are in the habit of not paying, its difficult to break.

The age at which payment is supposed to begin, is one difficult to distinguish from the age when one is free, and neither age (12/13) is required to, or likely to carry photo ID.

This has been an ongoing issue for decades. My father also had similar problems during his tenure from 1989 to 2019.

Everyone would claim they are a child or a student and it was difficult for operators to challenge it without discriminating. Even when I was in High School from 2001 to 2005-ish we were supposed to use our Student Cards but only a few of us did.

As was said before, we need to limit it to babes in arms so to speak. If the child is not an ACTUAL baby in a stroller or being carried by a parent/guardian they should not be riding for free. This means that a 4 year old in a stroller does not get a free ride.

We need to be able to say with certainty that a person qualifies for a discount without needing to ask.

I am sorry if it is hard for you to pay for transit with 6 kids but that is the cost of things in this world. Someone has to pay to operate the system.

 

[Northern Light]

Kids 12 and under who are free also get in the habit of using the TTC, period.

Do you have kids? I'm guessing not.

I realize you hate me; but its a bad look on you to everyone else that you're so antagonistic all the time.

***

No I don't have kids

I do have a niece who I took on transit plenty, and I was a kid; and this math question and a public policy question not a you get points for having kids question.

My daughter, who is literally turning 13 this week, has had a children's presto card for two years. We were given notification it will stop functioning as an unpaid pass on her birthday, and in order to receive student discount it needs to be renewed with identification. There is no cost to do so, just proof of age required.

That's nice.

Now, if your daughter enters on a another child's pass (free) and is confronted by transit enforcement she can claim to have no ID on her......and there is no enforcement option, and therefore enforcement doesn't even try.

Likewise, if you can pass for a teen, no one will question a 20 year old using a student pass

No one will question someone with any grey hair about whether they are really a senior.

Like there isn't any kind of difference between a childless couple making $120,000/yr and a couple with one or more kids making $120,000. Daycare alone cost us $900/month; and we fully recognize that was not expensive.

If you have a $120,000 per year in household income you do not require discounts, most particularly discounts that are the exact same if you earned 1/2 as much, or 1/4 as much.

There is an argument for universally lower fares.

But concession pricing generally makes more sense when targeted at a group in need.

Alternatively, concession pricing could target time-of-use, to make better use of surplus capacity, however, for transit, this creates new unfairnesses by suggesting that people can benefit only if they don't work or go to school at normal times.

"ideal" in a world where only other people have kids, right?

I didn't say that, again, your letter personal animus cloud your arguments.

It's a terrible one; that does nothing but discourages low income parents from using the TTC at all.

There is very little evidence that it significantly increased ridership among low income parents.

There is evidence it increased ridership among children of all demographics.

We lack the requisite data to make any assertion on the parental ridership by income.

 

[Richard White]

Operators, just like everyone else, can still be pissed off when they see people not paying for something they should be paying for. They know they can’t do anything about, but it doesn’t mean they don’t care.

Agreed.

My father did care that people were not paying at first then when his superiors stopped supporting his efforts to enforce the fares he gave up caring.

He used to park the bus until someone paid and call for a supervisor. He even publicly shamed a few people until they did as well.

When he retired, they told him to carry on driving as it was not worth the hassle.

 

[fiendishlibrarian]

Agreed.

My father did care that people were not paying at first then when his superiors stopped supporting his efforts to enforce the fares he gave up caring.

He used to park the bus until someone paid and call for a supervisor. He even publicly shamed a few people until they did as well.

When he retired, they told him to carry on driving as it was not worth the hassle.

Exact same with my Father. Drove from '74 to '06.

 

[Richard White]

Exact same with my Father. Drove from '74 to '06.

My father was out of Birchmount from 1989 to 2004, the Eglinton from 2004 to 2006 and back to Birchmount after that

 

[Amare]

Northern Light said:
Kids riding free encourages fare evasion by teens.

They are in the habit of not paying, its difficult to break.

The age at which payment is supposed to begin, is one difficult to distinguish from the age when one is free, and neither age (12/13) is required to, or likely to carry photo ID.

I’m glad you said this. Talk to any operator and this is exactly why they hate this initiative.

This is exactly the issue at play here, and I knew this was going to be an issue ever since John Tory launched the stupid initiative.

It's teens who are milking the policy by "fibbing" their age, and claiming that they are younger than they really are so that they dont have to pay. This isnt a recent phenomena, when I was younger i'll fully admit I did the same thing so I could continue using children fares. As did most kids around my age at that time as well.

The TTC is bleeding money from fare evasion, and the problem is exasperated by this kids ride free policy since you have 13, 14, 15, 16 year olds fully exploiting the system. If you have kids who dont have to pay a single cent, expect a bigger crowed to evade fares and not pay anything.

The same thing happened when the TTC had children under 12 pay; a lot of kids would just dump whatever change into the fare booth and hope that operators wouldnt count it and call them out. Now that Presto is a thing, that wouldnt be as big a problem today and they would actually be able to recover a significant amount of money as the TTC would be collecting full payments through Presto payment machines.

John Tory screwed this city more than many people think, and created a policy that no one has the guts to get rid of.

 

[zang]

I realized you hate me; but its a bad look on you to everyone else that you're so antagonistic all

No I don't have kids

I have niece who I took on transit plenty, and I was a kid; and this math question and a public policy question not a you get points for having kids question.

So, no, you don't have kids and aren't personally aware of the financial pressures that having kids puts on even modest income families. Got it.

That's nice.

Now, if your daughter enters on a another child's pass (free) and is confronted by transit enforcement she can claim to have no ID on her......and there is no enforcement option, and therefore enforcement doesn't even try.

And? Someone can find a lost presto card and use it for their own use. This is a ridiculous straw man argument.

Show me proof (with costing) that teens masquerading as children or evading fares are any kind of a serious problem.

If you have a $120,000 per year in household income you do not require discounts, most particularly discounts that are the exact same if you earned 1/2 as much, or 1/4 as much.

Is there some kind of base progressive cost of raising children I don't know about? Because, I think most parents would really like to know.

~$300k over the first 17 years to raise a kid, in Canada, on average. Not including any savings for post-secondary education. And that's the national average, not the costs of living in one of the most expensive cities in the country.

Just as an aside, I really hate when childless adults try and school parents on what they do or do not need.

There is very little evidence that it significantly increased ridership among low income parents.

I bet there's lots of evidence that low-income parents could afford to do other things however.

There is evidence it increased ridership among children of all demographics.

Please supply proof that it's caused massive fare evasion.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

High schools in the GTA should issue a PRESTO for the students (if they don't have one), at no cost, but in their home room or office. Get the students to fill out their forms as part of the school registration. Process it. If they have a PRESTO card already, then they don't get one. Then within a month, the home room teacher hands out the PRESTO card. Come October or November, start the enforcement.

 

[nfitz]

Kids riding free encourages fare evasion by teens.

Bull. And even if true, not the kids fault.

I see as many adults evading fares. Is that too because kids are free?

Also kids rarely go more than a handful of stops by themselves. But they should pay enough money to go for an hour ride?

The money involved was peanuts - what was the loss when they did it - $5 million? So about a 2¢ student/adult fare increase. It's literally a rounding error. And that doesn't include the saved costs on eliminating the extra work to have yet another class of tickets, passes, etc.

 

[nfitz]

My daughter, who is literally turning 13 this week, has had a children's presto card for two years. We were given notification it will stop functioning as an unpaid pass on her birthday, and in order to receive student discount it needs to be renewed with identification. There is no cost to do so, just proof of age required.

It's not hard to enforce free fares by requiring adult accompaniment or a children's presto pass. Of all the parents of my daughters friends however, I only know one couple who let their sub-13 year old travel on the TTC by themselves, and they only did so a month before that kid's 13th birthday.

Congrats! My youngest turned 13, two weeks ago! And the card flipped to an adult. So I got it reset to a student at Shoppers Drug Mart (but they didn't ask for any ID, even though I had it with me ... nor did Metrolinx ask for any when I first got it).

He's had it since he was 4! We developed a little problem back then, as he took to taking off running as soon as you tapped at a fare line, leaving you trapped on the other side! So we got the card, to let him tap - and the "problem" went away.

He certainly was riding by himself - I don't see the big deal if he's walking home from school by himself. Heck, it's probably safer! As were his friends, because since Grade 6 or so, they used to go a couple of stops to the nearest park to play soccer at lunch hour. I certainly see lots of kids that age, and younger, going home on streetcar ... for very few stops normally.

I suppose it might depend where you live - though 506 hardly has the most stellar reputation. In my experience the suburban routes - even on the big arteries, were very quiet and tame compared to the streetcars.

 

[zang]

Congrats! My youngest turned 13, two weeks ago! And the card flipped to an adult. So I got it reset to a student at Shoppers Drug Mart (but they didn't ask for any ID, even though I had it with me ... nor did Metrolinx ask for any when I first got it).

Congrats yourself! Apparently some elementary schools will issue photo id for students if required, but I've just been assuming her BC will pass. We'll find out in a few days I guess.

He's had it since he was 4! We developed a little problem back then, as he took to taking off running as soon as you tapped at a fare line, leaving you trapped on the other side! So we got the card, to let him tap - and the "problem" went away.

We're the opposite; a daughter who was more than likely to lag behind to check out the spider she just saw, or to oogle a storefront. We weren't aware of the kids pass for a long time; at least not until she was of an age (11) where there was some ambiguity, so there was never a problem getting onto rides. She's always been encouraged to tap, even though she knows she doesn't *really* need to.

He certainly was riding by himself - I don't see the big deal if he's walking home from school by himself. Heck, it's probably safer! As were his friends, because since Grade 6 or so, they used to go a couple of stops to the nearest park to play soccer at lunch hour. I certainly see lots of kids that age, and younger, going home on streetcar ... for very few stops normally.

Our daughter is pretty mature and was allowed to sign herself out of her afterschool care at age 11 during her last month there, but we've never lived less than about a km away from either her junior or senior public schools. She hasn't felt ready yet to venture onto the subway by herself yet; though we've been trying to encourage it. I feel it's coming though; as her best friend moved up to the Davisville area last year and she misses hanging out with her as often. As well an awesome maker spot that she'd love to go to on a regular basis.

I suppose it might depend where you live - though 506 hardly has the most stellar reputation. In my experience the suburban routes - even on the big arteries, were very quiet and tame compared to the streetcars.

Well, that's the thing. We're within a stone's throw of Yonge & Bloor.