[Admiral Beez]

Just scrap the kids-ride-free in that case (and/or maybe increase the student/senior fares), and leave the adult fares alone

Everyone should pay the same fare. If a senior or a minor go to the supermarket they pay the same price. Why is transit different? The senior prices on restaurant menus bug me too, since Boomers are amongst the richest Canadians of all time.

 

[T3G]

Consider yourself lucky they're not shuffling money around at the expense of keeping a historical fleet

Did you miss that everything except for the one GM was sent to Halton?

If you still genuinely think that they're going to be coming back when the Hillcrest construction, then I don't know what to tell you. It was easy to sink the costs of transporting them into the capital cost of redoing Hillcrest, but there will be no such budget when the project is wrapped up. Then, if they come back, you can lord it over me.

Because adult fares are already the highest compared to senior/student let alone child fares, obviously, so increasing the latter while keeping them reduced compared to adult fares is only fair and would even things out, rather than adult fares having to pick up the tab. If fare increases apply to senior/student fares too, then fair enough, I was primarily referring to legal free rides.

I assume that a fare increase will affect all groups. But the TTC would be dumb to not collect more money from their biggest and most financially solvent group of riders.

N.B. as far as I know, student discounts only apply to those who purchase passes. If you're one of those silly buggers who don't ride the TTC enough to make buying a pass financially justifiable, you pay full price.

 

[81-717]

Did you miss that everything except for the one GM was sent to Halton?

If you still genuinely think that they're going to be coming back when the Hillcrest construction, then I don't know what to tell you. It was easy to sink the costs of transporting them into the capital cost of redoing Hillcrest, but there will be no such budget when the project is wrapped up. Then, if they come back, you can lord it over me.

I don't care if they get sent to Australia or wherever, it has no effect on the historical fleet's existence, even if someone else picks up the tab for the TTC.

N.B. as far as I know, student discounts only apply to those who purchase passes.

Post-secondary, yes. As for secondary students (up to and including age 19), discounts apply regardless of fare type. And having checked the TTC website, turns out senior & student fares aren't quite the same thing either, and senior fare is 10 cents cheaper still.

 

[Northern Light]

FFS, not this again. Kids riding free are no big strain on the system, and in fact encourage more paying fares. I get it, some people don't like kids getting to ride free.

Kids riding free encourages fare evasion by teens.

They are in the habit of not paying, its difficult to break.

The age at which payment is supposed to begin, is one difficult to distinguish from the age when one is free, and neither age (12/13) is required to, or likely to carry photo ID.

12 and under is free is cost in-efficient, and since it goes equally to the rich as to lower income folks its not redistributive.

2/3 and under is free is fine, if you're in a stroller on a parent's lap.

Otherwise eliminating age concession of all types is ideal (the savings can be used to lower adult fares if desired)

It results in lower fare evasion, greater enforcement, and is much cheaper to administer.

Its hardly the only change the TTC requires, but it would be a good one.

 

[Northern Light]

N.B. as far as I know, student discounts only apply to those who purchase passes. If you're one of those silly buggers who don't ride the TTC enough to make buying a pass financially justifiable, you pay full price.

Students (HS) get the discount w/o a pass. Post-secondary students must buy a pass.

 

[APTA-2048]

Kids riding free encourages fare evasion by teens.

They are in the habit of not paying, its difficult to break.

The age at which payment is supposed to begin, is one difficult to distinguish from the age when one is free, and neither age (12/13) is required to, or likely to carry photo ID.

I’m glad you said this. Talk to any operator and this is exactly why they hate this initiative.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

We're almost duplicating the crisis that Philadelphia's SEPTA is facing. Dated September 20, 2024.

In Philadelphia, for example, the regional transportation authority could face a $240-million deficit after Covid relief funds run out. The Southeast Pennsylvania Transit Authority was expecting $161 million in state funds this budget cycle, but the legislature and governor sent only $51 million. Without a way to make up the immediate shortfall, SEPTA has said that it will implement service cuts and fare increases. Gov. Josh Shapiro never signed a proposed tweak in the state's sales tax allocation — a major source of transportation funding.

See https://usa.streetsblog.org/2024/09/20/doom-loop-alert-transit-systems-are-suffering-and-too-many-are-cutting-service

---

Dated September 6, 2025...

Full SEPTA service to be restored Sept. 14, if state approves agency’s request to dip into maintenance funds​

A roughly 21% fare hike will also go into effect that day.​

See https://whyy.org/articles/septa-service-restored-september-14-maintenance-funding/

 

[Northern Light]

I’m glad you said this. Talk to any operator and this is exactly why they hate this initiative.

I had a discussion with TTC Special Constables recently on this point. They were adamant that it made enforcement much more challenging.

 

[nstuch]

Students (HS) get the discount w/o a pass. Post-secondary students must buy a pass.

you have to get a student Presto card by taking the child's ID to Shoppers when you buy a card to validate their age. Then, when they tap it's at the student rate instead of adult.

 

[Northern Light]

We're almost duplicating the crisis that Philadelphia's SEPTA is facing. Dated September 20, 2024.


See https://usa.streetsblog.org/2024/09/20/doom-loop-alert-transit-systems-are-suffering-and-too-many-are-cutting-service

---

Dated September 6, 2025...

Full SEPTA service to be restored Sept. 14, if state approves agency’s request to dip into maintenance funds​

A roughly 21% fare hike will also go into effect that day.​

See https://whyy.org/articles/septa-service-restored-september-14-maintenance-funding/

There is no crisis.

Don't believe everything you read.

There is 'budget pressure' every single year w/o exception.

Its always an exaggerated number; its based on a zero tax increase, a zero fare increase, and typically, high-ish estimates for volatiles costs like fuel (this is reasonable, as you wouldn't want to be short of money for this).

But there is no cliff. Just choices.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I’m glad you said this. Talk to any operator and this is exactly why they hate this initiative.

Operators have no incentive to care if the passengers pay.

 

[zang]

Kids riding free encourages fare evasion by teens.

They are in the habit of not paying, its difficult to break.

Kids 12 and under who are free also get in the habit of using the TTC, period.

The age at which payment is supposed to begin, is one difficult to distinguish from the age when one is free, and neither age (12/13) is required to, or likely to carry photo ID.

Do you have kids? I'm guessing not.

My daughter, who is literally turning 13 this week, has had a children's presto card for two years. We were given notification it will stop functioning as an unpaid pass on her birthday, and in order to receive student discount it needs to be renewed with identification. There is no cost to do so, just proof of age required.

It's not hard to enforce free fares by requiring adult accompaniment or a children's presto pass. Of all the parents of my daughters friends however, I only know one couple who let their sub-13 year old travel on the TTC by themselves, and they only did so a month before that kid's 13th birthday.

And for that matter, I have seen obvious non-pass holding teens claiming they're 12 get booted off streetcars because they didn't have accompanying adults with them.

12 and under is free is cost in-efficient, and since it goes equally to the rich as to lower income folks its not redistributive.

Like there isn't any kind of difference between a childless couple making $120,000/yr and a couple with one or more kids making $120,000. Daycare alone cost us $900/month; and we fully recognize that was not expensive.

2/3 and under is free is fine, if you're in a stroller on a parent's lap.

Otherwise eliminating age concession of all types is ideal (the savings can be used to lower adult fares if desired)

"ideal" in a world where only other people have kids, right?

It results in lower fare evasion, greater enforcement, and is much cheaper to administer.

Proof? Because there's that line where parents can claim their 4 or 5 year old is really 3 and get them in for free.

It's hardly the only change the TTC requires, but it would be a good one.

It's a terrible one; that does nothing but discourages low income parents from using the TTC at all.

 

[APTA-2048]

Operators have no incentive to care if the passengers pay.

Operators, just like everyone else, can still be pissed off when they see people not paying for something they should be paying for. They know they can’t do anything about, but it doesn’t mean they don’t care.

 

[Richard White]

Kids riding free encourages fare evasion by teens.

They are in the habit of not paying, its difficult to break.

The age at which payment is supposed to begin, is one difficult to distinguish from the age when one is free, and neither age (12/13) is required to, or likely to carry photo ID.

This has been an ongoing issue for decades. My father also had similar problems during his tenure from 1989 to 2019.

Everyone would claim they are a child or a student and it was difficult for operators to challenge it without discriminating. Even when I was in High School from 2001 to 2005-ish we were supposed to use our Student Cards but only a few of us did.

As was said before, we need to limit it to babes in arms so to speak. If the child is not an ACTUAL baby in a stroller or being carried by a parent/guardian they should not be riding for free. This means that a 4 year old in a stroller does not get a free ride.

We need to be able to say with certainty that a person qualifies for a discount without needing to ask.

I am sorry if it is hard for you to pay for transit with 6 kids but that is the cost of things in this world. Someone has to pay to operate the system.

 

[Northern Light]

Kids 12 and under who are free also get in the habit of using the TTC, period.

Do you have kids? I'm guessing not.

I realize you hate me; but its a bad look on you to everyone else that you're so antagonistic all the time.

***

No I don't have kids

I do have a niece who I took on transit plenty, and I was a kid; and this math question and a public policy question not a you get points for having kids question.

My daughter, who is literally turning 13 this week, has had a children's presto card for two years. We were given notification it will stop functioning as an unpaid pass on her birthday, and in order to receive student discount it needs to be renewed with identification. There is no cost to do so, just proof of age required.

That's nice.

Now, if your daughter enters on a another child's pass (free) and is confronted by transit enforcement she can claim to have no ID on her......and there is no enforcement option, and therefore enforcement doesn't even try.

Likewise, if you can pass for a teen, no one will question a 20 year old using a student pass

No one will question someone with any grey hair about whether they are really a senior.

Like there isn't any kind of difference between a childless couple making $120,000/yr and a couple with one or more kids making $120,000. Daycare alone cost us $900/month; and we fully recognize that was not expensive.

If you have a $120,000 per year in household income you do not require discounts, most particularly discounts that are the exact same if you earned 1/2 as much, or 1/4 as much.

There is an argument for universally lower fares.

But concession pricing generally makes more sense when targeted at a group in need.

Alternatively, concession pricing could target time-of-use, to make better use of surplus capacity, however, for transit, this creates new unfairnesses by suggesting that people can benefit only if they don't work or go to school at normal times.

"ideal" in a world where only other people have kids, right?

I didn't say that, again, your letter personal animus cloud your arguments.

It's a terrible one; that does nothing but discourages low income parents from using the TTC at all.

There is very little evidence that it significantly increased ridership among low income parents.

There is evidence it increased ridership among children of all demographics.

We lack the requisite data to make any assertion on the parental ridership by income.