[DSCToronto]

You oppose someone not simply post 3 or 4 words before a stream of unattributed text?

Though I too like to know the source of random posts, in this case it was pretty obviously an official TTC news item and it is actually on their News page at https://www.ttc.ca/news

 

[DSCToronto]

It's always the same station names.

Trains are not stopping at pftlwh station

Intruder on the tracks as foffid station

If they haven't got the time to talk slower for the one critical word, and repeat it - leaving enough of a gap between the words to avoid the reverb, they should be terminated.

But yes ... many more announcements could be automated.

Public announcements have two possible problems: Poorly read material or poor equipment. The TTC certainly has some people who could read or annunciate 'better' but I think the problem is often the equipment (usually the loud-speakers) as I have been on trains where one is 'between speakers and one of them sounds fine and the other as though it is under-water!

 

[picard102]

Public announcements have two possible problems: Poorly read material or poor equipment. The TTC certainly has some people who could read or annunciate 'better' but I think the problem is often the equipment (usually the loud-speakers) as I have been on trains where one is 'between speakers and one of them sounds fine and the other as though it is under-water!

In all the cases (that I observed), Line 1 and 2, the automated announcements about the next station were clear, not so much the human read ones.

 

[txlseries4]

In all the cases (that I observed), Line 1 and 2, the automated announcements about the next station were clear, not so much the human read ones.

Yeah, this is the bizarre part to me. It's as though they're using two different PA systems. Are the microphones faulty? I could see the TTC being resistant to typing up announcements on the fly without a QA system in place because misspellings and poor phrasing would be bad. Also maybe would receive union pushback for removing responsibilities from members. It couldn't come soon enough though because the current system is horrendous.

 

[McGillicuddy]

One announcement originates with the train's on-board equipment, the other is being transmitted from elsewhere. Lot more things can go wrong with the latter.

 

[picard102]

Yeah, this is the bizarre part to me. It's as though they're using two different PA systems. Are the microphones faulty? I could see the TTC being resistant to typing up announcements on the fly without a QA system in place because misspellings and poor phrasing would be bad. Also maybe would receive union pushback for removing responsibilities from members. It couldn't come soon enough though because the current system is horrendous.

I feel like a simple announcement builder could be created to handle most announcements though, no freeform text needed. Investigation at Select Station Name, Trains holding at Select Station Name etc.

 

[urbanclient]

Ok I am going to have to push back on this as it wasn't the streetcar network that prevented the Queen Street line from being built, it has always been stalled by politics. Firstly in 1910 after residents voted in favour of Streetcar subways under Yonge and Queen, only for that proposal to be cancelled after the next election due to its cost. Also this first proposal wasn't just about "rapid transit" but also getting around the Toronto Railway Company's ownership of the network. Once the city took over the network in 1921 this stopped being an issue. The next proposal came around in the 40's after WWII with a heavy-rail subway under Yonge and a Streetcar subway under Queen. This was derailed because the Province and Feds couldn't agree on a post-war employment program so only the Yonge Line could be built at the time. The next proposal came around in the 50's/60's but this one fell through because the Bloor-Danforth corridor had become the city's primary east-west corridor and it is where all of the suburban riders from Scarborough, Etobicoke, East York, and York were being funnelled on to. The BLOOR streetcar was way over capacity (something like 18,000pph) and replacing it was now the higher priority. So while politics didn't kill this proposal the city's suburbanization and changing travel patterns did, and the suburbs would continue to be the biggest obstacle for constructing the line moving forward. In 1967 the first wave of amalgamations would see the Villages of Mimico, New Toronto, and Long Branch wiped off the map and with them their support for the Queen Streetcar Subway, leaving Toronto as the lone voice on Metro Council still championing the project. Since those three villages were streetcar suburbs anchored around the LONG BRANCH Streetcar they supported the Queen Line since it would speed up travel times for the streetcar, especially if it was connected to the Queensway ROW. From here on the balance of power on Metro Council shifted to the suburbs and every transit expansion project would be out there as it was both cheaper and more politically popular with suburbanites to extend the subway further into the burbs then build a brand new line downtown. As well with the three villages out of the picture there was no point keeping the line as a streetcar subway, so shortly after this the line evolved into a heavy-rail line. The DRL would pop up again in Network 2011 but that fell through after Davis retired, and the Liberals had no serious plan, and the NDP couldn't afford to build anything (iirc the DRL wasn't even part of the NDP's plan).

So it wasn't the legacy network that stopped the Queen Subway from being built as the city tried multiple times to build it. The blame for this lay largely with the suburbian municipalities which were more valuable to politicans then voters in the inner core. I remember when Rob Ford was making rediculous statments about how "Downtown had enough subways" eventhough not a singe new subway station had opened downtown since 1966. While at the time he was making those statements the Sheppard Line was only 10 years old. Finally the precedent of replacing streetcar lines with subways had already been set in this city as we did exactly that on Yonge Street and Bloor and Danforth, so I don't know how the legacy network prevented us from building a line along Queen Street when we had already replaced 2 other streetcar lines. Ideally we would have built the Queen Line after the Bloor-Danforth, now of course what form the line takes be it a streetcar subway or heavy-rail subway is a matter of debate but as we all know, that is not what happened. Instead the subway was expanded further in Scarborough, Etobicoke, and North York as they were now the ones with the largest voice on Metro Council and the rest is history.

I'm aware of the politics, the Queen streetcar was a contributing factor to the Queen Subway effectively being delayed into the 2030s. not the only factor. Even then, the Ontario Line is arguably not a real Queen subway line. But it's close enough for me.

Finally the precedent of replacing streetcar lines with subways had already been set in this city as we did exactly that on Yonge Street and Bloor and Danforth, so I don't know how the legacy network prevented us from building a line along Queen Street when we had already replaced 2 other streetcar lines.

That precedent was last set, as you said, in 1966. And never again was it done. That precedent no longer applies. A good chunk of the rise of the automobile, highways, and suburbs happened after 1966. The mentality now is that streetcars are good enough as rail transit for downtown (this has been previously discussed). The Ontario Line will not replace the Queen streetcar (and for good reason). Further evidence would be the 83 km route length of the streetcar network (plus much more non-revenue track) compared to 70 km of subway.

It's now infeasible to replace the Carlton streetcar with a spur line of Line 2 so it can share the Greenwood yard. The time to replace 1 or 2 streetcar lines with subways was the latter half of the 20th century. It's now too costly to dig through downtown for what is perceived as too little marginal benefit over existing streetcars.

Toronto is very unique in expanding subways into the suburbs more than 60 years before a 2nd/3rd downtown line is built. Other cities tend to build radial lines criss crossing downtown instead of/before extending lines deep into the suburbs. When you consider that Toronto has one of the densest skyscraper downtowns in the world (top 10), it's even more mind boggling that downtown hardly has any subways, while VMC station already exists. There are obviously other contributing factors besides the aforementioned.

 

[nfitz]

I'm aware of the politics, the Queen streetcar was a contributing factor to the Queen Subway effectively being delayed into the 2030s. not the only factor.

The original Queen subway that was approved in the referendum was for a streetcar tunnel through part of downtown, continuing as streetcar on Queen east and west of downtown. So for a couple of decades, that the Queen streetcar was well used doesn't even begin to explain the delay.

 

[urbanclient]

The original Queen subway that was approved in the referendum was for a streetcar tunnel through part of downtown, continuing as streetcar on Queen east and west of downtown.

And why did the steam run out for that? We all know about lower Queen. It's not reasonable to put all the blame on the suburbs (on the Metro council)... Why tunnel something when it already exists and does well enough on the surface?

 

[nfitz]

And why did the steam run out for that? We all know about lower Queen. It's not reasonable to put all the blame on the suburbs (on the Metro council)... Why tunnel something when it already exists and does well enough on the surface?

How is that different than Manhattan where they replaced grade-seperated lines with grade-seperated lines? Which makes Manhattan even more odd.

 

[Northern Light]

And why did the steam run out for that? We all know about lower Queen. It's not reasonable to put all the blame on the suburbs (on the Metro council)... Why tunnel something when it already exists and does well enough on the surface?

Respectfully, this feels like raising a dead question, one which invariably involves speculation, and one which you know has you taking an unpopular view and one you can't prove (neither can your opponents disprove it).

Can we not focus discussions on present and the future, rather than re-litigating ....I do/don't like streetcars, yet again?

 

[urbanclient]

How is that different than Manhattan where they replaced grade-seperated lines with grade-seperated lines? Which makes Manhattan even more odd.

Not understanding how that relates to burying the Queen streetcar. The mere pre-existence of the streetcar system itself, makes it unlikely for even 1 or 2 routes to be grade separated or upgraded to high floor subway, for many reasons, one of the big ones being politics as @JSF-1 has mentioned.

Respectfully, this feels like raising a dead question, one which invariably involves speculation, and one which you know has you taking an unpopular view and one you can't prove (neither can your opponents disprove it).

Can we not focus discussions on present and the future, rather than re-litigating ....I do/don't like streetcars, yet again?

Not relitigating that. Pointing out the system justification bias that makes it unlikely for say, the Queen streetcar to be tunnelled. I like the downtown streetcars.

The thing I lament is the potential for their lower capacity/speeds-->throughput to curtail densification and development along 1-2 main corridors. Downtown tunnelled streetcars are a thing even in North America, SF and Boston come to mind. I just don't see streetcars being grade separated anytime soon downtown, nor do I see another downtown subway/metro after the Ontario Line happening in my lifetime. It's not subway vs. streetcar, it's an issue of grade separation and the induced demand / development that it can spur.

Second point:

There are intersections every ~100 m downtown, I don't see east-west surface streetcars being conducive to a 30 minute city for anything south of Bloor, even if the streetcars become significantly faster over the next 2-3 years.

Somewhat related example: BMO Field is a mere 3.5 km away from Union by walking. And yet it takes 30 minutes by 509 streetcar (+ short walk). Basically anyone south of College-ish, west of Dufferin that works in the Financial District is in violation of Marchetti's constant right now. (Yes Lakeshore West exists, but are 15 minute frequencies good enough? What about door to door walking that includes the longer walk to/from the GO train)

Now I know Marchetti isn't a hard and fast rule, but it's a good aspiration to have. Toronto being 1 hour away from Toronto is not a good thing.

Plenty of streetcar served areas west of Dufferin will still have 30+ min trips even after the speed initiatives.

Humber Bay Shores et al seems forgotten about at this point (GO station(s) when?) In an ideal Toronto, all the streetcars would stay, but more radial subway lines would cut east-west linking downtown to downtown-adjacent areas and beyond.

More than half (51.7%) of Toronto commuters report one-way commutes over 30 minutes. In the GTHA Census Divisions, between 41.3% and 48.5% of commuters had a one-way trip of more than 30 minutes, while the national average was 33.1% (see Table 4).

https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/u...ucation-Labour-Commuting-Language-of-Work.pdf

 

[M II A II R II K]

For today’s match they started running the 829 bus from Dufferin Station to Toronto Stadium

 

[nfitz]

For today’s match they started running the 829 bus from Dufferin Station to Toronto Stadium

I wondered why the BMO FIeld and GO Transit were doing the FIFA testing for todays 45,000 person match and TTC weren't.

I'm surprised there weren't any announcement.

When I walked past Exhibition Loop after the match, it looked to be running very smooth with lots of streetcars. GO was nice with trains every 10 minutes.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

I wondered why the BMO FIeld and GO Transit were doing the FIFA testing for todays 45,000 person match and TTC weren't.

I'm surprised there weren't any announcement.

When I walked past Exhibition Loop after the match, it looked to be running very smooth with lots of streetcars. GO was nice with trains every 10 minutes.

The Canadian National Exhibition (CNE) averages to about 89,000 visitors per day. So Exhibition Place can handle the 45,736 seating capacity at "Toronto Stadium". It's having them coming and going at once that is the problem.