Northern Light said:
Instead of skimming, try reading.

You do have have this consistent habit of deciding what you think before having the facts and reading only pieces that agree with your preordained view.

The substantive question in the piece is this:

Does Therme actually have the funding in place to build the Toronto project or an other?

The Times suggests that is very much in question and the evidence certainly points in that direction.
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They absolutely do not. Everything about this has always stunk. Every single angle.
 
Northern Light said:
Instead of skimming, try reading.

You do have have this consistent habit of deciding what you think before having the facts and reading only pieces that agree with your preordained view.

The substantive question in the piece is this:

Does Therme actually have the funding in place to build the Toronto project or an other?

The Times suggests that is very much in question and the evidence certainly points in that direction.
Click to expand...
I just went through a rabbit hole trying to figure out Therme and Wund Holdings, there are way too many subsidiaries for seven properties - and I stop cuz my day job is much more important.

But yea, when it is this convoluted to understanding the structure, it is not giving me the confidence :/

Honestly, as long as they give us a good facility and landscape, I will be ok. If they fold, we will repurpose that facility to something else. The rendering is looking pretty decent.
 
ProjectEnd said:
They absolutely do not. Everything about this has always stunk. Every single angle.
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This is how I've felt all along as well, and the Auditor General's report was pretty damning.

That said, there is always a need to examine each piece of new evidence as it is unfolded.
 
Tyrang said:
I just went through a rabbit hole trying to figure out Therme and Wund Holdings, there are way too many subsidiaries for seven properties - and I stop cuz my day job is much more important.

But yea, when it is this convoluted to understanding the structure, it is not giving me the confidence :/

Honestly, as long as they give us a good facility and landscape, I will be ok. If they fold, we will repurpose that facility to something else. The rendering is looking pretty decent.
Click to expand...

Call me cynical, but I was surprised that they actually built and started to operate something similar to the renderings for the Ontario Place spa on the outskirts of Bucharest. See these photos. That's not to say that building the same thing here will be a breeze with our construction costs, particularly at this challenging island site.

Also, I remain opposed to the notion of building a palm tree-filled spa at a location meant to celebrate Ontario. It's culturally perverse.

But the provincial government seems committed to providing any subsidy to make it happen. It's bizarre that their whole strategy at the outset seemed to be to minimize public expenditure by getting the private sector involved in Ontario Place's revitalization, only to end up spending the same amount of money or more to subsidize this project as if they had gone it alone and built a cultural/entertainment hub surrounded by parkland.
 
junctionist said:
Call me cynical, but I was surprised that they actually built and started to operate something similar to the renderings for the Ontario Place spa on the outskirts of Bucharest. See these photos. That's not to say that building the same thing here will be a breeze with our construction costs, particularly at this challenging island site.

Also, I remain opposed to the notion of building a palm tree-filled spa at a location meant to celebrate Ontario. It's culturally perverse.

But the provincial government seems committed to providing any subsidy to make it happen. It's bizarre that their whole strategy at the outset seemed to be to minimize public expenditure by getting the private sector involved in Ontario Place's revitalization, only to end up spending the same amount of money or more to subsidize this project as if they had gone it alone and built a cultural/entertainment hub surrounded by parkland.
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I am no fan of Ford's gov but let's not bundle too many things into the umbrella of subsidy here.

My understanding to the Ontario Place is that while WT could develop Ontario Place but the timeline will stretch pretty long - they just recently secure funding for Quayside and Villiers (without transit budgeted in), and that project will take until 2040 to complete. This is their solution to move the timeframe up, and it looks like Ford wants Ontario Line and Ontario Place to be developed at the same time by 2031. So it is both time and cost.

Back to the subsidy - here it takes the form of a cheap lease terms and infrastructure (and Science Center relocation). Commitment from Therme side (along with Live Nation) is $100 Million development cost on the landscape outside of the facility and the lease amount per year. Yes it is benefit to the company, but it is note really a true subsidy yet (altho it may become one).

Again, to me, as long as the end result looks good, we can take it over if the company did not do well and have to end the lease.
 
Vetting is your friend, Doug...not your enemy. A system designed so you don't get screwed too. Just saying.
 
Tyrang said:
Maybe Therme did exaggerate their portfolio, but the article also did some selective reporting. Therme has 7 projects, 3 completed and 4 ongoing.
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Two (Erding and Bucharest) actually exist.

Wund built the Erding spa and the Times finds that:

IMG_5531.jpeg
 
Tyrang said:
I just went through a rabbit hole trying to figure out Therme and Wund Holdings, there are way too many subsidiaries for seven properties - and I stop cuz my day job is much more important.

But yea, when it is this convoluted to understanding the structure, it is not giving me the confidence :/

Honestly, as long as they give us a good facility and landscape, I will be ok. If they fold, we will repurpose that facility to something else. The rendering is looking pretty decent.
Click to expand...
You post here often and it now turns out that you are too busy (or lazy?) to try to obtain and understand facts and appear to think that if something is complicated it may be suspect. I am starting to think your opinions may be a bit suspect and possibly not worth reading.
 
AlexBozikovic said:
Two (Erding and Bucharest) actually exist.

Wund built the Erding spa and the Times finds that:

View attachment 644768
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Yeah...that's where I thought things where getting were weird here...and in not a good way. Homage is one thing..but in the exercise of grifting, this was conveniently meant to create a fog of confusion that they where the same thing. /sigh
 
DSCToronto said:
You post here often and it now turns out that you are too busy (or lazy?) to try to obtain and understand facts and appear to think that if something is complicated it may be suspect. I am starting to think your opinions may be a bit suspect and possibly not worth reading.
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I actually went through their websites, PR releases, and went through all of their orgs. And proceeded to read German news sites - so maybe not diligent enough (also actually at work)?

I will and do apologize if I make a mistake in any of my understanding as some of the more senior members have corrected me frequently - for example I did make a mistake in reading that the Frankfurt location is actually opened.

Calling me lazy seems a bit uncalled for. As for reading my opinions... I don't even think my opinion are worth reading - I am a hobbyist, so it is really up to you.
 
Bayer said:
Interesting article in the NYT claiming Therme misrepresented itself. Hopefully this gift link will work:
A Wellness Company With False Claims, Global Aims and a Toronto Island
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https://archive.is/ro7WF
And as it pitched its vision for Toronto, Therme's finances appeared to be shaky. Auditors found it was losing money and had less than 1 million euro (about $1.1 million) in equity...
The company has yet to secure outside investment for its Toronto project. But the Ontario government has been busy clearing land for Therme on West Island.
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Northern Light said:
... The substantive question in the piece is this:
Does Therme actually have the funding in place to build the Toronto project or an other?
The Times suggests that is very much in question and the evidence certainly points in that direction.
Click to expand...
As I said in the thread about the not-going-to-happen entertainment/e-sports venue at Exhibition Place, I don't understand how government officials can be so naive that they can be duped by big talkers with some renderings, and somehow forget to look into the important matter of whether the proponents actually have the money to build what they are proposing.

Does that mean this thing may never get built, stop part way through, or at best get completed in some very diminished form that has little resemblance to what they promised?

Edit: If the proponents were falsely pretending to be something they weren't, and pretending to have assets/money they didn't, shouldn't that result in some kind of criminal fraud charges?
 
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UtakataNoAnnex said:
Vetting is your friend, Doug...not your enemy. A system designed so you don't get screwed too. Just saying.
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I love how after all the political capital he invested in this, he's now saying 'I don't really know anything about this because I relied on staff reports and wasn't really personally involved'...
 
FrankNF said:
I love how after all the political capital he invested in this, he's now saying 'I don't really know anything about this because I relied on staff reports and wasn't really personally involved'...
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He knew. Just those rose coloured glasses he was wearing when signing the deal where conveniently overlooking that fact…
 
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