[dowlingm]

The only issue I have ever had with LRTs, aside from terrible service times due to sharing the road with car traffic, is if anything goes wrong along the LRT, it's a full stop. This past winter, Dundas Street East LRT was out of commission for two weeks

not sure why you’re using LRT to describe mixed traffic streetcar track ther

I think people living along Dundas Street, Queen Street, King Street, especially where the OL intersects with King and Queen, it clearly would be faster and easier to just take the OL instead of streetcars. I would. Traffic is horrible during rush hour on Dundas, Queen, and King Street.

The thing about posts like the above is that they have the feel of wishing rather than predicting. If riders do indeed prefer OL, the TTC will adjust. However, the wobbling route of OL between Gerrard and Moss Park may continue to make some streetcar route choices more convenient. Meanwhile the decision to shove OL southwest towards Exhibition will mean most riders living on/north of Queen west of Bathurst may see limited advantage in transferring. The goal of projects like OL and RER should be mode shift from cars, which if achieved will have positive impacts on surface transit vehicle speeds.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Of course I was making a broad generalization. It's not going to be the same for everyone. But for the huge population who live in North York, Etobicoke, or Scarborough, getting downtown means taking a bus to the subway, and once downtown, taking a bus or streetcar to where you want to go. Of course, if you live right on a subway on LRT line, it will be different for you, but most people don't. Having a streetcar or bus running parallel to a subway or underground LRT is nice (everyone likes to mention the Yonge bus here), but is usually not cost effecient, so when a rapid transit system comes in, the surface line that used to be there, gets removed. We can't have everything!

Need a parallel surface route in case the lone elevator at a station (or stations) is out-of-service, for accessibility purposes. Until they install a second backup elevators at each station (not going to happen in this century).

 

[A 6264]

Need a parallel surface route in case the lone elevator at a station (or stations) is out-of-service, for accessibility purposes. Until they install a second backup elevators at each station (not going to happen in this century).
View attachment 671040

As has been said before, when the subway lines opened, the streetcar lines that used to exist over those routes, were removed. I'm sure it will happen again, and I'm surprised to see many people expect that there will be parallel bus routes after LRT lines open. I do expect streetcar routes on Queen and King to return to the way they were after OL opens, but I wouldn't be surprised if, for example, the Pape bus running along Don Mills up to Eglinton, gets taken away.

As for accessibility, without dismissing the importance of what your picture is showing, it's clear from the existing standard of having only one elevator system per subway station, that having all stations accessible at all times, is not the TTC's intention, especially since subways mostly have no parallel surface routes. Transit accessibility is a relatviely new concept in Toronto. When I was younger, subways had no elevators at all, despite the existence of lobbying groups demanding them, and surface vehicles did not have low floors to allow wheelchairs or carts. The front entrances to streetcars and buses, which were the only entrances one could use, had 2 narrow side by side sets of stairs leading steeply up some 4 feet from the street to the vehicle's floor, merging at a dreadful bottleneck next to the driver, where payment was deposited into a glass box. (And at one time, drives gave out change; there was a little black dish they would put coins on.)

 

[nfitz]

The only issue I have ever had with LRTs, aside from terrible service times due to sharing the road with car traffic, is if anything goes wrong along the LRT, it's a full stop. This past winter, Dundas Street East LRT was out of commission for two weeks (if I recall) due to damage from that huge snow storm. Then there are fender benders in the same lane as the LRT, etc. Having an alternate route will be great.

Sounds a bit off topic but it's not. My point is...

I think people living along Dundas Street, Queen Street, King Street, especially where the OL intersects with King and Queen, it clearly would be faster and easier to just take the OL instead of streetcars. I would. Traffic is horrible during rush hour on Dundas, Queen, and King Street. All routes I take, frequently. Traffic can get so bad that I often literally beat the LRT by walking instead.

Using Canary Landing as an example, if I lived there, I would never take any of those streetcars again and just take the OL to the closest station and walk the rest of the way. It would be dramatically faster.

FYI: I'm not crapping on Streetcars either, just that they share the road with traffic instead of having a dedicated lane that only they use. I think they would be competitive with the OL if they were on a dedicated lane. Ah well.

There's certainly going to be some modal shift from streetcar to the Ontario Line. All the OLT traffic is shifting from somewhere. So yeah, if I'm taking a streetcar from Queen and Coxwell to Chinatown (say Queen and Spadina), of course I'm going to now get off at Riverside/Leslieville station (or whatever they call it) and switch to subway.

But if I'm at Cherry Loop going to King and Yonge, and I really going to walk 10 minutes to Corktown station (why isn't this called Parliament?), take the Ontario subway to Queen, go up whoever knows how many escalators and then take the Yonge subway one stop? I'm not sure it would even be fast than the 15 minutes the streetcar would take at rush hour!

I suppose one could take the streetcar to King/Parliament (6 minutes)( and then change to the subway at Corktown station - but can climb down into the station, take the Ontario Line 2 stops, change to the Yonge Line, wait for a train, and get to King station in only 9 minutes (in rush hour - only 7 minutes at 11 pm)?

An 11 pm 504 trip from King/Parliament to King/Bathurst is only 19 minutes. A 5-stop subway ride will certainly be quicker - I'd guess 8 minutes. Maybe 2 minutes up and down at each station, and 4 minutes wait for a train - 16 minutes total. The Ontario subway would be fastest - by about 3 minutes. But what if you are at King and Sherbourne?

That said, there's many frequent trips I'll be taking it for. Pape station to Carlaw/Gerrard. Many of my 506 trips (or walking up to Line 1) from Coxwell to Line 2 to Chinatown and even Exhibition will become much shorter 506 trips to Gerrard station.

But will my 506 trips to Dundas Square switch to the Ontario line? It will probably depend on time of day, weather, etc. What about College Park? Probably not.

 

[evandyk]

An 11 pm 504 trip from King/Parliament to King/Bathurst is only 19 minutes. A 5-stop subway ride will certainly be quicker - I'd guess 8 minutes. Maybe 2 minutes up and down at each station, and 4 minutes wait for a train - 16 minutes total. The Ontario subway would be fastest - by about 3 minutes. But what if you are at King and Sherbourne?

It's not really fair to attribute a 4 minute wait for a subway train, but no wait for a streetcar. The frequency of trains will almost certainly be much more reliable than the frequency of 504 streetcars, which are sometimes 20 minutes apart during off hours. Of course, having another option means that you can check the app and choose for yourself. Having alternate transit routes through the downtown is key to enabling people to rely on transit for most of their trips.

 

[A 6264]

There's certainly going to be some modal shift from streetcar to the Ontario Line. All the OLT traffic is shifting from somewhere. So yeah, if I'm taking a streetcar from Queen and Coxwell to Chinatown (say Queen and Spadina), of course I'm going to now get off at Riverside/Leslieville station (or whatever they call it) and switch to subway.

But if I'm at Cherry Loop going to King and Yonge, and I really going to walk 10 minutes to Corktown station (why isn't this called Parliament?), take the Ontario subway to Queen, go up whoever knows how many escalators and then take the Yonge subway one stop? I'm not sure it would even be fast than the 15 minutes the streetcar would take at rush hour!

I suppose one could take the streetcar to King/Parliament (6 minutes)( and then change to the subway at Corktown station - but can climb down into the station, take the Ontario Line 2 stops, change to the Yonge Line, wait for a train, and get to King station in only 9 minutes (in rush hour - only 7 minutes at 11 pm)?

An 11 pm 504 trip from King/Parliament to King/Bathurst is only 19 minutes. A 5-stop subway ride will certainly be quicker - I'd guess 8 minutes. Maybe 2 minutes up and down at each station, and 4 minutes wait for a train - 16 minutes total. The Ontario subway would be fastest - by about 3 minutes. But what if you are at King and Sherbourne?

That said, there's many frequent trips I'll be taking it for. Pape station to Carlaw/Gerrard. Many of my 506 trips (or walking up to Line 1) from Coxwell to Line 2 to Chinatown and even Exhibition will become much shorter 506 trips to Gerrard station.

But will my 506 trips to Dundas Square switch to the Ontario line? It will probably depend on time of day, weather, etc. What about College Park? Probably not.

See how many options you have!

 

[nfitz]

It's not really fair to attribute a 4 minute wait for a subway train, but no wait for a streetcar. The frequency of trains will almost certainly be much more reliable than the frequency of 504 streetcars, which are sometimes 20 minutes apart during off hours. Of course, having another option means that you can check the app and choose for yourself. Having alternate transit routes through the downtown is key to enabling people to rely on transit for most of their trips.

I was assuming I'd already boarded the streetcar earlier. Though in reality if I start there, if I look at my app, and see the streetcar will be there in 30 second, and I know that subway trains only come once every 5 minutes, and I know King Street works well at whatever time it is, I'll jump on. But if it says next car in 20 minutes, or it's late on a Friday night, and I know the idiot taxi-cabs in the entertainment district will be screwing riders over, I'll take the subway.

And yes, alternate transit routes is the answer!

 

[jmi22]

It's not really fair to attribute a 4 minute wait for a subway train, but no wait for a streetcar. The frequency of trains will almost certainly be much more reliable than the frequency of 504 streetcars, which are sometimes 20 minutes apart during off hours. Of course, having another option means that you can check the app and choose for yourself. Having alternate transit routes through the downtown is key to enabling people to rely on transit for most of their trips.

Forget 20 minutes, I have regularly waited 30 minutes+ for a 504 car, anybody acting like time savings on a crosstown trip will be only 3 minutes is on a different planet.

 

[nfitz]

Forget 20 minutes, I have regularly waited 30 minutes+ for a 504 car, anybody acting like time savings on a crosstown trip will be only 3 minutes is on a different planet.

With effectively 3 different routes on King, I haven't waited that long for a streetcar for a long time. Stuff happens of course.

But yes, the one thing the subway will have is better reliability. Though we all hope that's something TTC can fix (we've probably been waiting for them to pull that off for 100 years).

 

[evandyk]

I lived on King for years, and never waited 30 minutes for a streetcar unless the whole street was shut down. I rarely waited for more than 2-3 minutes, or 5-6 at real off hours. But there were definitely times when I checked the app and it would have been faster to walk from Sherbourne to Yonge to catch the subway rather than wait for the streetcar. Once the OL is going, I doubt there are many scenarios where if you're near one of the stations, it's faster to take a streetcar to get to the subway.

 

[A 6264]

I lived on King for years, and never waited 30 minutes for a streetcar unless the whole street was shut down. I rarely waited for more than 2-3 minutes, or 5-6 at real off hours. But there were definitely times when I checked the app and it would have been faster to walk from Sherbourne to Yonge to catch the subway rather than wait for the streetcar. Once the OL is going, I doubt there are many scenarios where if you're near one of the stations, it's faster to take a streetcar to get to the subway.

I find it hard to believe. Sure, I've seen a streetcar go by every few minutes. But it wasn't the RIGHT streetcar. 15+ mins for the streetcar you want is not uncommon, they certainly don't run as frequently as subway trains.

 

[PL1]

Enjoy it while it lasts. It won't be long before the taggers muck it up.

I meant clean architecturally... I'm sure the taggers will provide "colour", and the future station will affect the clean lines

 

[reinventingthewheel]

It appears most of you have forgotten this is an Ontario Line thread, take your discussion elsewhere.

Here’s something to get back on topic:

Crews at Corktown have now reached 29m below street level, making it the second future Ontario Line station to reach the bottom of it's excavation shaft!

 

[Aplus23]

It appears most of you have forgotten this is an Ontario Line thread, take your discussion elsewhere.

Here’s something to get back on topic:
View attachment 671321

So eventually the TBM will break through that wall ?

 

[reinventingthewheel]

So eventually the TBM will break through that wall ?

EDIT: This is an outdated plan.

That wall is Front street, there’s another deep pit on the other side. The space between will be carved out with smaller machines then the TBM will launch from here in the opposite direction of the photo.