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raptor said:
sometimes I question the need to ask the public's input on things. This is one of those instances.
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I think what we've done in Ontario over the past 5ish decades is a lovely experiment.

However, I'm beginning to believe that someone should pursue a doctoral thesis evaluating the costs and benefits of public input on major infrastructure projects.
 
The answer to this may be a no brainer, but the need for government to hold consultation should never be waived. Can’t complain about process when, say, a city council is reorganized, and not complain about it here. This holding consultations after the decision is reached, or goint through the motions, is so Metrolinx. It needs to blow up in their face, again and again, until they learn some lessons.

Matlow asks a reasonable question : what is the real impact on the completion of the project? If any other stations are falling behind, the impact may be manageable..... although I suspect there is money at stake too. There are likely downstream tasks that will be impacted. How much float does this use up?

The question I would add is - what level of traffic congestion will there be in each scenario, and for how long? I suspect the extended option is worse, since Bathurst will probably be so pinched, and for a longer period.

Lastly, ML says the closure will be x months, Who believes them? What happens if they blow by the end date?

In the end, the closure may be the better option.... but people should be able to ask these questions, and somebody should be on the hook to provide answers, before this becomes a sure thing.

- Paul
 
WislaHD said:
I think what we've done in Ontario over the past 5ish decades is a lovely experiment.

However, I'm beginning to believe that someone should pursue a doctoral thesis evaluating the costs and benefits of public input on major infrastructure projects.
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I agree 100% over this. The public's ideas in general when it comes to ANY infastrucature project suck. For example, Park Lawn GO. That would have been built, if it weren't for the public and Metrolinx fighting over it.
 
^The other thing to watch when they hold the public consultation: does ML get up and announce something along the lines of - “Because this is a P3 project, the vendor has the contractual right to plan the work, and select the most expeditious method. If we override the vendor’s choice of method, we incurr penalties”.

My prime objection to P3 in Ontario has always been, it firewalls accountability for decisions away from government and ML.

The pols will all wring their hands and claim it’s not their decision. It is their decision, lets’s watch how much backbone they may have, or not.

- Paul
 
The public would want a subway station on their major intersection but not have any lane closure or construction effects that affect businesses nearby and protest any major development that occurs because of that subway station is built.

crs1026 said:
^The other thing to watch when they hold the public consultation: does ML get up and announce something along the lines of - “Because this is a P3 project, the vendor has the contractual right to plan the work, and select the most expeditious method. If we override the vendor’s choice of method, we incurr penalties”.

My prime objection to P3 in Ontario has always been, it firewalls accountability for decisions away from government and ML.

The pols will all wring their hands and claim it’s not their decision. It is their decision, lets’s watch how much backbone they may have, or not.

- Paul
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ML keep changing their minds too on important decisions which does cost delays. The contract must have some sort of override abilities and requirements. ML could change things if it doesn't delay the project and are willing to pay for it. The consortium don't get to do absolutely everything they want. There are things ML specially requested or restrictions imposed.
 
smallspy said:
That's funny. I go through that intersection once or twice each day without having to detour. Am I doing it wrong?

Dan
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Well, it is a giant traffic jam, and for the last little while, turns haven't been allowed. If you are going directly through, you just have to brave the lane restrictions and traffic.

People who turn north on Bayview cut onto Bruce Park to by-pass the intersection via Roehampton. People who turn south on Bayview cut onto Soudan. Many people going straight through the intersection east-west also use Soudan-Parkhurst to reach Laird.

As a local resident, I am definitely not a fan of cars using these residential streets as a by-pass. They are usually the impatient types, and have no problem flooring it down Bruce Park, for instance, which is on a hill (so sight lines limited) and doesn't have sidewalks on one-side of the road so often has dog walkers or moms with strollers on the street. (There is a nearby paediatrician office)
 
WislaHD said:
Well, it is a giant traffic jam, and for the last little while, turns haven't been allowed. If you are going directly through, you just have to brave the lane restrictions and traffic.

People who turn north on Bayview cut onto Bruce Park to by-pass the intersection via Roehampton. People who turn south on Bayview cut onto Soudan. Many people going straight through the intersection east-west also use Soudan-Parkhurst to reach Laird.

As a local resident, I am definitely not a fan of cars using these residential streets as a by-pass. They are usually the impatient types, and have no problem flooring it down Bruce Park, for instance, which doesn't have sidewalks on one-side of the road so often has dog walkers or moms with strollers on the street. (There is a nearby paediatrician office)
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Though, it may not be long before the automobiles use residental streets, because Daddy Metrolinx wants to shut down the intercestion still, right ????? Or did they change that.
 
WislaHD said:
Well, it is a giant traffic jam, and for the last little while, turns haven't been allowed. If you are going directly through, you just have to brave the lane restrictions and traffic.

People who turn north on Bayview cut onto Bruce Park to by-pass the intersection via Roehampton. People who turn south on Bayview cut onto Soudan. Many people going straight through the intersection east-west also use Soudan-Parkhurst to reach Laird.

As a local resident, I am definitely not a fan of cars using these residential streets as a by-pass. They are usually the impatient types, and have no problem flooring it down Bruce Park, for instance, which is on a hill (so sight lines limited) and doesn't have sidewalks on one-side of the road so often has dog walkers or moms with strollers on the street. (There is a nearby paediatrician office)
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I will confess that having been caught in miserable traffic up that way a few times, I now totally disregard the turn prohibitions and turn where I can, taking care to look around for police (there never are any, they stay away from the congestion, and the ones on construction duty on Eglinton never get out of their cruisers anyway). It's hard to say this is "unsafe", since the no-turns are mostly arbitrary restrictions for the locals' benefit, and are not an "engineered" traffic design. One never knows what one can't do until you get there, and it's infuriating to plan a route and then discover it's not usable somehow.
I would like to say I'm driving carefully, but after being stuck going nowhere for 15 minutes I have certainly felt the urge to floor it when I get some clear space in front of the car. Sorry, pure human nature.
I expect Bathurst will be similar. The solution is to get the construction done as quickly as possible, and get things back to normal. There is no silver bullet.

- Paul
 
WislaHD said:
Well, it is a giant traffic jam, and for the last little while, turns haven't been allowed. If you are going directly through, you just have to brave the lane restrictions and traffic.
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Rush-hour(s) in Toronto always seems to be a giant traffic jam to me, especially the further you are from downtown (if you stay away from the Gardiner!) ... I can't say I've made the mistake of trying to drive down Bayview from 401 in rush hour since the early 1990s (Leslie or Don Mills Road is generally better) ...

... but looking right now in rush hour at 4:40 pm ... traffic in Google maps looks not horrific on Bayview at Eglinton - some backup sure ... but similar if not worse at Lawrence (northbound) and definitely worse at York Mills. Southbound looks good. Sure looks better than the congestion on Highway 7 near Pine Valley or Major Mack at Jane or Dufferin and Steeles or Bloor at Royal York ...
 
WislaHD said:
Well, it is a giant traffic jam, and for the last little while, turns haven't been allowed. If you are going directly through, you just have to brave the lane restrictions and traffic.
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I wouldn't call it a giant traffic jam. Yes, it often takes 2 light cycles to pass through there, but it's only a bit worse than it used to be. (And as a whole, it really seems as if traffic levels are way down all across Eglinton.)

As for turns, while yes they've restricted several of them, they've seemed to have done a good job of managing to keep most of them through the intersection.

WislaHD said:
People who turn north on Bayview cut onto Bruce Park to by-pass the intersection via Roehampton. People who turn south on Bayview cut onto Soudan. Many people going straight through the intersection east-west also use Soudan-Parkhurst to reach Laird.

As a local resident, I am definitely not a fan of cars using these residential streets as a by-pass. They are usually the impatient types, and have no problem flooring it down Bruce Park, for instance, which is on a hill (so sight lines limited) and doesn't have sidewalks on one-side of the road so often has dog walkers or moms with strollers on the street. (There is a nearby paediatrician office)
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People cutting through those neighbourhoods to avoid traffic is nothing new, and has nothing to do with the construction. People were doing it when I was going to Leaside over 20 years ago, and for all I know were doing it 20 years before that as well. It was so prevalent in fact that we referred to the stop signs as "stop-tionals". And even today, they still are.

Dan
 
Steve X, I’m not so sure people universally want the subway stop without the construction headache. A surprising number of local residents don’t want subway stops nearby at all and actively campaign against them.
 
smallspy said:
People cutting through those neighbourhoods to avoid traffic is nothing new, and has nothing to do with the construction. People were doing it when I was going to Leaside over 20 years ago, and for all I know were doing it 20 years before that as well. It was so prevalent in fact that we referred to the stop signs as "stop-tionals". And even today, they still are.
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Well, as a local who was here before and present, the number of people doing it has definitely gone up by my observed experience.
 
My thoughts on the Bathurst situation:

Traffic on Eglinton between Allen on Yonge is pretty light (relatively speaking) at all times of the day. The east-west traffic bottleneck in the area has never been Bathurst, but rather Allen Road. Now that Eglinton @ Allen has been reconfigured to provide cars entering Allen from westbound Eglinton with their own lane, traffic through the area is relatively smooth sailing

Travelling North-south on Bathurst @ Eglinton remains pretty bad, however.

My preference is to keep the intersection open, with the current lane restrictions in place, even if it means doubling the construction time of the station. Imo, that's a lesser penalty than totally shutting down the intersection to north-south traffic for several months. Of course, this preference comes with the caveat that it should not affect the overall delivery timeline of the Crosstown LRT. If there's even a small chance this could delay project completion, the intersection should be shut down.
 
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