[CityRider]

There are 3-5 accounts on here that are utterly poisoning the discourse. The Line 6 thread has been unreadable for its unrelenting nihilism and negativity for some time now. Line 5 hasn't opened, and it's already happening here too.

Is Line 5 imperfect? Of course. Lots of criticism is merited. But there is a pocket of users on here that are assailing the line for seemingly no reason except to 1) provoke? rage bait? or 2) to make anyone that expresses even a modicum of excitement feel like shit.

Enough already! Do you know how awful you have to be to make the Reddit threads seem fair and balanced? Have some self restraint, or mods: please step in more aggressively, or the rest of us should find somewhere else to talk about this project.

I've found the "Ignore" feature on here very useful. You can hover over a member's username and then click the "Ignore" button. I'm just not interested in reading comments repeatedly calling everything "a cancer" when all I want is project updates and photos of construction progress.

 

[grammin]

As far as I have covered this line in the past. There should be zero problems between Mount Dennis and Science Centre (sorry Don Mills) after that, it could be a bit iffy. They just need signal priority at Leslie. There's a fair amount of track and a couple of crossovers between Don Mills and Vic Park. I could be wrong there but it would mean offloads and short turnarounds. I can see them trying very hard to keep the tunnel portions evenly spaced and on schedule. I assume this would be very unwelcome and unfair for Scarborough residents though.

Edit: Excited to see this in service though

 

[APTA-2048]

You're not comparing it to any baseline. You haven't heard of any major problems... Those Skytrain rolling stock types seem fine, but then again, only 5 other cities run Innovia Metros, and basically none of them bought Canadian-built rolling stock post-opening. Bombardier BiLevels are outdated tech, and the doors between trains often don't work properly, forcing people to use this switch to keep doors closed or open:

What would that baseline be? Also, I'm pretty sure Kuala Lumpur bought MK IIIs that were built in Ontario. I'm not sure how advanced you're expecting a North American commuter rail car to be, but the CEM BiLevels are quite different from the first generation. What would you say is outdated about them? I find those door switches annoying to, but that seems like a really minor issue, and appears to be more of a supplier problem.

The Toronto Rockets are running 28 inch wheels (for continuity with older stock?) when most of the world has moved on to 30-33 inch wheels for new rolling stock. They also had their own problems, whether you think they're major is up to you: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/new-ttc-trains-performance-unacceptable-says-ceo-1.1211708

Those early problems have since been rectified as far as I know.

Flexity Freedom tech is close to 2 decades old. Even then, it's unacceptable that they're capped at 60 kph despite over 6 years of testing.

It was designed way back in the late 2009s. With very few orders, I'm not sure there is any incentive to change anything. Also there wasn't any opportunity to actually run any in service at high speeds, so the issue is only coming to light now. But there is no way to say either way if this is due to being manufactured in North America. Bogie design is probably European. Though I'm not entirely sure if they were manufactured in Europe.

 

[smallspy]

You're not comparing it to any baseline. You haven't heard of any major problems... Those Skytrain rolling stock types seem fine, but then again, only 5 other cities run Innovia Metros, and basically none of them bought Canadian-built rolling stock post-opening. EDIT: 3 of 5 didn't buy Canadian-built rolling stock period.

Bombardier BiLevels are outdated tech, and the doors between trains often don't work properly, forcing people to use this switch to keep doors closed or open:

I don't ride GO every day, but I do use it reasonably often. And the number of times that I have seen a failed end door is fewer than the digits on my right hand.

What is more common is people who aren't able to read the signs and open the doors properly.

View attachment 712861
It begs the question, why haven't GO carriages been upgraded to proper open gangways? Probably cost and familiarity with the legacy stuff.

Because they use couplers. Each car is a discrete element. The diaphragm does not couple to each car, it is just held against the next by springs and friction.

To have open gangways, the diaphram needs to be a singular unit that attaches to both carbodies so that there are never any gaps and openings - meaning that you can't use couplers between cars. The TRs are drawbarred together, which is why they can use those types of gangway covers (and larger openings between them).

Maybe I should've been more specific, it's some combination of "technology decades behind, poor quality management, etc."
The Toronto Rockets are running 28 inch wheels (for continuity with older stock?) when most of the world has moved on to 30-33 inch wheels for new rolling stock. They also had their own problems, whether you think they're major is up to you: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/new-ttc-trains-performance-unacceptable-says-ceo-1.1211708

I'm not sure what bearing the size of the wheel has on rolling stock, other than it doesn't actually mean anything, but.....

Proof that a 28" wheel is somehow a Toronto thing?

Flexity Freedom tech is close to 2 decades old. Even then, it's unacceptable that they're capped at 60 kph despite over 6 years of testing.

CrosstownTO

The Crosstown is a 19-kilometre light rail transit line that will run under and along Eglinton Avenue through the heart of Toronto. The Crosstown is one of four new LRT lines bringing 52 km more transit to Toronto. Under construction today.

www.youtube.com

Take it up with Crosslinx. As I've written before, they're the ones who have instituted this silly speed limit.

Dan

 

[Kelson]

You do realize there's still the western extension to Renforth under construction and yet another proposed extension to Pearson?

There is a separate thread for the Western extension though. Though I understand there will be pages of debate on this thread dissecting every bump, delay, and driver taking an extended sh*t break at Mount dennis until the page # reaches 3000

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Besides the surface section limitations, they used a garbage bespoke signalling system instead of standard, off-the-shelf technology. Signalling / software issues were widely reported in the last couple of years, e.g. Globe and Mail. It's mind boggling to build an expensive custom solution, as if Metrolinx wanted the project to fail.

They ARE using an off-the-shelf system Bombardier/Alstom Cityflo 650 CBTC. But like all modern signalling systems they have to be programmed bespoke.

 

[drum118]

Sprinkler pipe bursts at Mount Dennis station days before opening, video shows​

 

[T3G]

Bombardier BiLevels are outdated tech,

How so? I have a lot of gripes with the way GO does things, but I've never had a problem with their train rolling stock. I'm not a believer in changing something that works perfectly fine just because it's built to an older design, that is money that could be used far more constructively ... such as in buy outs of rail corridors or buying new buses / refurbishing the old ones, to stop the issues they're having with their equipment right now.

I would be outraged if any movement whatsoever was made to replace the BiLevels. That's not where GO's problems lie.

 

[urbanclient]

What would that baseline be? Also, I'm pretty sure Kuala Lumpur bought MK IIIs that were built in Ontario.

See "post-opening", which I can promise wasn't edited in since you quoted it. And my later edit that 3 of 5 didn't even use Canadian-built trains ever.

What would that baseline be? [...] What would you say is outdated about them? I find those door switches annoying to, but that seems like a really minor issue, and appears to be more of a supplier problem.

They're poor quality and/or outdated, not to mention expensive compared to even European-built trains (see below). For GO specifically, I am comparing GO trains with intercity and commuter rail in East Asia (as well as NS in the Netherlands, which also run bi-levels). Someone else chime in here. Euro S-bahn-y, commuter, and intercity trains tend to be much nicer than GO trains that aren't even truly walk-through right... But again, the GO bi-levels are a legacy holdover, and changing to completely new stock would be expensive.

If we're doing would've should've could've: Toronto Rocket's should've been built with lighter, (cheaper?) materials (less stainless steel, more aluminum), larger diameter wheels, with colour LCD screens, and better integrated A/C units (why is the ceiling so low), among other things. Having been on metro rolling stock of the same or earlier era, the Toronto Rockets leave a lot to be desired: https://www.blogto.com/city/2014/07/ttc_set_to_fix_most_annoying_feature_of_rocket_trains/

I previously compared Finch West's Citadis Spirit to Paris T9's Citadis 405. 30% more money for less reliable (see ongoing OTrain disaster), worse-turning, LCD-screenless, uglier trams with narrower gangways, and somehow one less door (7 instead of 8 per side).

But there is no way to say either way if this is due to being manufactured in North America. Bogie design is probably European. Though I'm not entirely sure if they were manufactured in Europe.

The bogie designs for the Citadis Spirit are uniquely North American, at least nominally. The Citadis bogies are called Iponam aka Ixège Pour North America. For the Freedom's case, the bogies are almost certainly not unique to NA. However, even if we forget the Euro-Flexity Outlooks from the early 2000s, the first Flexity 2 entered service in 2012, versus 2019 for the Freedom, and 2026 for Eglinton. Low floor bogies capable of higher yaw angles (i.e. better turning) now exist. Poorly turning bogies are the core problem with low-floor trams. That is why I say Canadian-built rolling stock is outdated.

The Freedoms are not that different from the Outlooks introduced 12 years ago. Don't forget the lack of LCD screens.

And in Eglinton's case, the reliability appears to be poor too. The "ongoing issue [...] when they operate over 60" is not the first time Eglinton train reliability has been questioned. Cheap Cutting-edge Reliable . So what kind of value-for-money did we get here?

 

[McGillicuddy]

So, to recap the arguments we're hearing:

1. Metrolinx are ignorant fools and Line 5 is fully cooked because, like the boomers they are, they insisted on developing a fancy new bespoke signalling system instead of doing the obviously, trivially correct thing and sticking with off-the-shelf technologies that have been thoroughly tested and shown to work in similar installations.

2. Metrolinx are ignorant fools and GO Transit is fully cooked because, like the boomers they are, they insist on running off-the-shelf bilevel coaches that have been thoroughly tested and definitely work in this specific installation, instead of doing the obviously, trivially correct thing and experimenting with novel technologies that might prove unsuitable.

 

[ctf5650]

So, to recap the arguments we're hearing:

1. Metrolinx are ignorant fools and Line 5 is fully cooked because, like the boomers they are, they insisted on developing a fancy new bespoke signalling system instead of doing the obviously, trivially correct thing and sticking with off-the-shelf technologies that have been thoroughly tested and shown to work in similar installations.

2. Metrolinx are ignorant fools and GO Transit is fully cooked because, like the boomers they are, they insist on running off-the-shelf bilevel coaches that have been thoroughly tested and definitely work in this specific installation, instead of doing the obviously, trivially correct thing and experimenting with novel technologies that might prove unsuitable.

Hit the nail on the head, dude is chasing his own tail. "Constructive feedback" and "accountability" isn't writing off North American rail manufacturing as a whole because you can't figure out how to open a bilevel door.

 

[T3G]

How exactly is the line 5 rolling stock outdated? What exactly do newer trams do that these can't?

I don't view an absence of an LCD screen as being a problem. These kinds of features are nice-to-have cosmetic add ons; they don't affect the experience of using the vehicle for 99% of its users.

 

[urbanclient]

How exactly is the line 5 rolling stock outdated? What exactly do newer trams do that these can't?

I don't view an absence of an LCD screen as being a problem. These kinds of features are nice-to-have cosmetic add ons; they don't affect the experience of using the vehicle for 99% of its users.

See previous post:

However, even if we forget the Euro-Flexity Outlooks from the early 2000s, the first Flexity 2 entered service in 2012, versus 2019 for the Freedom, and 2026 for Eglinton. Low floor bogies capable of higher yaw angles (i.e. better turning) now exist. Poorly turning bogies are the core problem with low-floor trams. That [and more] is why I say Canadian-built rolling stock is outdated.

If we are paying more for Canadian labour, fine. But we should at least be getting better value-for-money than the Spirits in general and Freedoms on Eglinton. Let's be real here.

The Freedoms are fine elsewhere, sure, but that doesn't negate the problems with them on Eglinton. Last year, and now with the 60 kph speed cap underground.

Eglinton Crosstown LRT vehicle 'availability and reliability' latest issue to face line before launch

Metrolinx CEO Michael Lindsay said crews are figuring out the 'maintenance profile' of the 10-year-old Eglinton Crosstown LRT vehicles.

toronto.citynews.ca

“This is outrageous”: NDP responds to Eglinton LRT vehicles getting too old to operate after years of delays

TORONTO – NDP Shadow Minister for Public Transit Doly Begum (Scarborough Southwest) issued the following statement in response to the Eglinton LRT Crosstown being delayed due to its aging vehicles.

www.ontariondp.ca

 

[T3G]

That problem can be countered by having banked turns, no?

 

[urbanclient]

That problem can be countered by having banked turns, no?

Do you really think it's feasible to retrofit banked turns on any of the LRT lines in Canada? Especially for Eglinton at this stage. Be serious.