[Monarch Butterfly]

Don't forget the 20 minutes to wait for the 32 to move through all the Allan traffic and turn into the station.

You mean the automobile drivers don't read the signs?

 

[T3G]

Do you really think it's feasible to retrofit banked turns on any of the LRT lines in Canada? Even for Eglinton at this stage. Be serious.

Well, common sense would dictate anticipating a problem before it happens and trying to deal with it right away. It has been known for more than 20 years that, all else being equal, a low floor tram can't handle turns as well as a high floor one, and other cities have adopted exactly such solutions to deal with the problem. But considering that the we didn't even bother to look at best LRT practices from KW, never mind anywhere from Europe....

You still see this kind of exceptionalist thinking on this forum. Every time someone suggests a solution from Europe, and is called a Europhile, the person doing the calling is just creating more of the culture that they are trying to avoid having. Lines 5 and 6, in the exact forms we received them in, could've been smash successes, but we as a city are far, far too arrogant to contemplate the idea that we may have something to learn from others, and that's why transit in this city looks the way that it does.

 

[APTA-2048]

See "post-opening", which I can promise wasn't edited in since you quoted it. And my later edit that 3 of 5 didn't even use Canadian-built trains ever.

Kuala Lumpur bought Mk IIIs long after their system opened, though. Who were the three that didn't use Canadian built trains?

They're poor quality and/or outdated, not to mention expensive compared to even European-built trains (see below). For GO specifically, I am comparing GO trains with intercity and commuter rail in East Asia (as well as NS in the Netherlands, which also run bi-levels). Someone else chime in here. Euro S-bahn-y, commuter, and intercity trains tend to be much nicer than GO trains that aren't even truly walk-through right... But again, the GO bi-levels are a legacy holdover, and changing to completely new stock would be expensive.

Again I'm not sure what you're expecting the BiLevel to be. Others have already explained why the BiLevels don't have open gangways.

If we're doing would've should've could've: Toronto Rocket's should've been built with lighter, (cheaper?) materials (less stainless steel, more aluminum), larger diameter wheels, with colour LCD screens, and better integrated A/C units (why is the ceiling so low), among other things. Having been on metro rolling stock of the same or earlier era, the Toronto Rockets leave a lot to be desired: https://www.blogto.com/city/2014/07/ttc_set_to_fix_most_annoying_feature_of_rocket_trains/

Do you know what the TTC actually wanted? I'm pretty sure they explicitly wanted a stainless steel carbody. I can't speak for the wheels, but Dan seemed to have explained that. In the early 2000s when these were conceived, LCD screens likely cost more than the TTC was willing to accept. I don't recall seeing LCD screens on various metros I've been on during that time either. Montreal was lucky that their design process started in the late 2000s. As for the HVAC, it's a huge unit. It's unfortunate. They didn't want it under the train because of debris, so it takes up a lot of space on the roof.

I already said elsewhere I wasn't a fan of the TRs, but these issues have nothing to do with them being built here.

The bogie designs for the Citadis Spirit are uniquely North American, at least nominally. The Citadis bogies are called Iponam aka Ixège Pour North America. For the Freedom's case, the bogies are almost certainly not unique to NA. However, even if we forget the Euro-Flexity Outlooks from the early 2000s, the first Flexity 2 entered service in 2012, versus 2019 for the Freedom, and 2026 for Eglinton. Low floor bogies capable of higher yaw angles (i.e. better turning) now exist. Poorly turning bogies are the core problem with low-floor trams. That is why I say Canadian-built rolling stock is outdated.

The first Flexity Freedom was built in 2016/2017. The design process began back in 2011 or 2012, maybe earlier than that. When did Flexity trams in Europe start using a new bogie design different from the Flexity 2? Seems like the Crosstown Flexity used the same technology as their European contemporaries. Could the Flexity Freedom be redesigned, sure, but there's no incentive to because there are no orders. They're not outdated by design.

And in Eglinton's case, the reliability appears to be poor too. The "ongoing issue [...] when they operate over 60" is not the first time Eglinton train reliability has been questioned. Cheap Cutting-edge Reliable . So what kind of value-for-money did we get here?

"Cheap" is in a way subjective. Cutting edge? They were when they were ordered. Reliability with rolling stock is also an issue with other manufacturers who build outside of Canada. It's not uncommon for manufacturers to have issues with their products.

To write-off the whole industry in Canada is still unfair.

 

[urbanclient]

Well, common sense would dictate anticipating a problem before it happens and trying to deal with it right away. It has been known for more than 20 years that, all else being equal, a low floor tram can't handle turns as well as a high floor one, and other cities have adopted exactly such solutions to deal with the problem. But considering that the we didn't even bother to look at best LRT practices from KW, never mind anywhere from Europe....

You still see this kind of exceptionalist thinking on this forum. Every time someone suggests a solution from Europe, and is called a Europhile, the person doing the calling is just creating more of the culture that they are trying to avoid having. Lines 5 and 6, in the exact forms we received them in, could've been smash successes, but we as a city are far, far too arrogant to contemplate the idea that we may have something to learn from others, and that's why transit in this city looks the way that it does.

Ok I totally agree here. But having overtly banked turns doesn't seem to be necessary to make trams successful, including in Europe.

The term europhile was thrown around by others because of pervasive hand-waving "do it like Europe" without any careful consideration of what exactly makes European trams successful. Put simply, these LRTs we have so far in Ontario are only superficially similar to some lines in Europe, in that they use low floor trams. That's about it.

 

[Steve X]

I’m just afraid of the trains scraping against the tunnel liners if they go too fast with unevenly worn out wheels.

 

[APTA-2048]

Line 5's rolling stock is outdated, even @APTA-2048 has admitted as such. It's not entirely the rolling stock manufacturer's fault, as project delays lead to train tech aging for no fault of their own.

I did not say they were outdated.

The meat of the argument is that Canadian rolling stock tends to be more expensive, less reliable, and somehow also less technologically advanced than European or Asian-built counterparts. Often sharing the same family name, but the end product is demonstrably inferior. Do I need to repeat the the Citadis Spirits are worse in basically every relevant way, and yet cost 30% more than the Citadis 405s for Paris?

You keep going back to the Citadis Spirit as your one example. But I need to see some actual analysis that Canadian rolling stock is demonstrably inferior across the board

 

[pmacpherson68]

Similar sign at Don Mills and Eglinton (I assume they're at all station stops)
View attachment 712467

the 32 used to go all the way out to Renforth station, I guess another bus at Mount Dennis station will do that?

 

[pmacpherson68]

Does anyone have the new Bus Route info that will be in place for Sunday?

 

[Steve X]

the 32 used to go all the way out to Renforth station, I guess another bus at Mount Dennis station will do that?

Yeah that’s the new 32.

 

[urbanclient]

Kuala Lumpur bought Mk IIIs long after their system opened, though. Who were the three that didn't use Canadian built trains?

This is not really relevant to my main argument, as I have defended Innovia metro from being called obsolete or outdated by @6ixGod recently. Everline, Beijing Capital, Riyadh. KL I believe bought some Canadian-built, but later orders were locally assembled + tech transfers or something: https://www.railvolution.net/news/innovia-metro-trains-for-kuala-lumpur The point is, Innovia is rare and proprietary, making comparisons of outdatedness impossible, and reliability very difficult. Of course the offshore-made trains in say China were cheaper.

Do you know what the TTC actually wanted?

Yes, I am aware of what they wanted, I have seen the specs. That doesn't mean ordering the effectively* heaviest rolling stock Line 1 has ever seen was a good idea: thinking of rail and trackbed maintenance costs alone. The climate control units looking like an afterthought jutting through the ceiling...

They're not outdated by design.

I mostly agree, only because I don't expect competitors to copy bogie tech very quickly. But Flexity 2 uses the exact same Flexx Urban 3000 bogie, and was released in 2009, entered service in 2012. So really, 14 year old tech on Eglinton at least. 7 to 10 years old when Eglinton first received them in 2019. Skoda 15Ts started construction in 2009, and are widely known to have better turning characteristics:

"The beauty of the Skoda 15T is that, unlike most other 100% low-floor models, it has (almost) fully rotating trucks with off-centre bearings under the first and last segment and a standard, Jacobs truck under each articulation point. To put things in perspective, pivoting on the Skoda 15T bogie is limited to about 25 degrees compared to almost about 40 degrees on our conventional CLRV/ALRV fleet (but still a hell of a lot better than about 3-4 degrees which is the most our Flexities are capable of). No matter how Bombardier sugar-coats it, not having (freely) rotating bogies is a major compromise. Instead of the bogie rotating, the entire vehicle module must be turned. Damping systems are needed to straighten the vehicle body and absorb shocks from these movements. This inevitably changes running characteristics for the worse." https://stevemunro.ca/2014/09/05/flexities-debut-on-spadina/comment-page-3/

So can we say that the Freedoms with worse turning characteristics than the Outlooks were 10 years behind the cutting-edge by 2019? It's subjective. I'm not going to say they were outdated when originally ordered ~2010, but the lead time was insanely long, which was Bombardier's fault.

I am not writing off the Canadian industry, a large part of the problem is due to an incompetent customer giving terrible specifications. I don't entirely blame BBD or Alstom for making a turd, if that's what the customer asked for, but both parties bear some responsibility for the end product. The turd not being polished or on-time is the manufacturer's fault.

However, buying off-the-shelf from offshore manufacturers would mostly solve the problems we're talking about: heavy, expensive subway trains with A/C units jutting down from the ceiling; outdated trams that somehow turn worse than contemporaries, much less newer trams (albeit offshoring would likely be politically infeasible).

 

[81-717]

I would be outraged if any movement whatsoever was made to replace the BiLevels

I wouldn't, I never liked that elongated octagon design, like what even is this. LIRR & MNRR EMUs have the right idea, too bad we can't have the same thing.

 

[urbanclient]

But I need to see some actual analysis that Canadian rolling stock is demonstrably inferior across the board

That's too absolutist of a take to prove. If I conveyed that absolutist notion earlier, that's my mistake. It's inferior in the examples I have given, not in every case, and certainly never wholly due to the manufacturer. Toronto Rocket's, inside and out are noticeably outdated compared to rolling stock of the same era from China. I touched on A/C, LCD screens, but also the max design / operating speeds, and lighting. If you've never been on similar sized metro trains from the same era, except New York or Chicago, of course the TRs don't seem outdated then or now (to be clear, not saying this is you @APTA-2048 ). And again, I don't blame the TR's low design speeds on Bombardier, but it's still part of the pay-more-get-less argument.

Here is an example, although I am sure I can find older examples as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_2_(Wuhan_Metro)#Rolling_stock
Notice how the ceiling doesn't protrude lower to accommodate climate control like an afterthought.

The GO Bilevels being outdated is pretty obvious, do I really have to further expand on this? That's not really an indictment of the manufacturer though.

Besides TRs, Citadis, Flexities, and GO Bilevels, what other rolling stock is front of mind in Toronto? These 4 are all outdated and/or have quality issues, while also being more expensive (5 if you count Outlooks and Freedoms separately). Last I checked, France didn't have cheaper labour than Canada, so what explains the 30% cost difference for Citadis? Alstom+France=Home court advantage?

 

[APTA-2048]

This is not really relevant to my main argument, as I have defended Innovia metro from being called obsolete or outdated by @6ixGod recently. Everline, Beijing Capital, Riyadh. KL I believe bought some Canadian-built, but later orders were locally assembled + tech transfers or something: https://www.railvolution.net/news/innovia-metro-trains-for-kuala-lumpur The point is, Innovia is rare and proprietary, making comparisons of outdatedness impossible, and reliability very difficult. Of course the offshore-made trains in say China were cheaper.

Yes, I am aware of what they wanted, I have seen the specs. That doesn't mean ordering the effectively* heaviest rolling stock Line 1 has ever seen was a good idea: thinking of rail and trackbed maintenance costs alone. The climate control units looking like an afterthought jutting through the ceiling...

I mostly agree, only because I don't expect competitors to copy bogie tech very quickly. But Flexity 2 uses the exact same Flexx Urban 3000 bogie, and was released in 2009, entered service in 2012. So really, 14 year old tech on Eglinton at least. 7 to 10 years old when Eglinton first received them in 2019. Skoda 15Ts started construction in 2009, and are widely known to have better turning characteristics:

"The beauty of the Skoda 15T is that, unlike most other 100% low-floor models, it has (almost) fully rotating trucks with off-centre bearings under the first and last segment and a standard, Jacobs truck under each articulation point. To put things in perspective, pivoting on the Skoda 15T bogie is limited to about 25 degrees compared to almost about 40 degrees on our conventional CLRV/ALRV fleet (but still a hell of a lot better than about 3-4 degrees which is the most our Flexities are capable of). No matter how Bombardier sugar-coats it, not having (freely) rotating bogies is a major compromise. Instead of the bogie rotating, the entire vehicle module must be turned. Damping systems are needed to straighten the vehicle body and absorb shocks from these movements. This inevitably changes running characteristics for the worse." https://stevemunro.ca/2014/09/05/flexities-debut-on-spadina/comment-page-3/

So can we say that the Freedoms with worse turning characteristics than the Outlooks were 10 years behind the cutting-edge by 2019? It's subjective. I'm not going to say they were outdated when originally ordered ~2010, but the lead time was insanely long, which was Bombardier's fault.

I am not writing off the Canadian industry, a large part of the problem is due to an incompetent customer giving terrible specifications. I don't entirely blame BBD or Alstom for making a turd, if that's what the customer asked for, but both parties bear some responsibility for the end product. The turd not being polished is the manufacturer's fault.

However, buying off-the-shelf from offshore manufacturers would mostly solve the problems we're talking about: heavy, expensive subway trains with A/C units jutting down from the ceiling; outdated trams that somehow turn worse than contemporaries, much less newer trams (albeit offshoring would likely be politically infeasible).

I still don’t see how going with an offshore manufacturer magically gets rid of any of the things you mentions. I’m also not convinced that the Flexity 2 is outdated. Everyone mentions Skoda, but they seemed to be the exception. I still don’t see anything convincing that a Flexity tram in Europe designed and built around the same time as a Flexity Freedom makes them outdated.

That's too absolutist of a take to prove. It's inferior in the examples I have given, not always, and certainly never wholly due to the manufacturer. Toronto Rocket's, inside and out are noticeably outdated compared to rolling stock of the same era from China. I touched on A/C, LCD screens, but also the max design / operating speeds, and lighting. If you've never been on similar sized metro trains from the same era, except New York or Chicago, of course the TRs don't seem outdated then or now (to be clear, not saying this is you @APTA-2048 ). And again, I don't blame the TR's low design speeds on Bombardier, but it's still part of the pay-more-get-less argument.

Here is an example, although I am sure I can find older examples as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_2_(Wuhan_Metro)#Rolling_stock
Notice how the ceiling doesn't protrude lower to accommodate climate control like an afterthought.

The GO Bilevels being outdated is pretty obvious, do I really have to further expand on this? That's not really an indictment of the manufacturer though.

Besides TRs, Citadis, Flexities, and GO Bilevels, what other rolling stock is front of mind in Toronto? They are outdated and/or have quality issues, while also being more expensive. Last I checked, France didn't have cheaper labour than Canada, so what explains the 30% cost difference for Citadis? Alstom+France=Home court advantage?

You haven’t given any convincing argument that the BiLevels are outdated. There is nothing so wrong with the TRs or BiLevels that we should just give up domestic production. Flexities Freedom and Citadis have their share of problems, but so do rolling stock manufactured elsewhere.

There are a lot of pieces of rolling stock produced in Canada that even after some initial issue have proven perfectly fine. Your claim that Canada produces outdated and unreliable rolling stock as a reason to shut down manufacturing here is just not true.

I cannot comment anything regarding price. I mean it could be the French government propping up their industry in part due to massive amounts of orders.

 

[pmacpherson68]

It's kinda sad that there wont be any fanfare or launch for Line 5, given that folks in this area have waited so long for it. At the end of the day it is a win for Toronto... Im pretty hopped up in anticipation,

 

[pmacpherson68]

the 32 used to go all the way out to Renforth station, I guess another bus at Mount Dennis station will do that?

its strange, but ttc site appears to still be keeping the 32 west and 34 east routes as they currently are... on Feb 8th. Left hand doesnt know what the right hand is doing? (see ref: Line 32 on https://www.ttc.ca/riding-the-ttc/Line-5-Eglinton)