[hw621]

Maybe we should forget about this thing and come back in two years...

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Ah jeez! We should have just restarted construction on the Eglinton subway after Mike Harris was voted out. This is ridiculous!

In regards to keeping pedestrians off the track. We could do what Calgary does with the C-train. Just put up jersey barriers dividing the track from the road. It works 100% of the time, keeping both pedestrians and automobiles off the track. Unfortunately though it makes for a rather ugly streetscape.

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the only reason the jersey barriers exist there is because that road is designed as a super-4 expressway rather than a stroad like Eglinton.

 

[Thaboss]

The implementation of the Ion has been terrible. Bad enough that someone created a site to literally count every interaction with traffic/bikes/pedestrians:

ION Crash Counter

Respectfully, I dont see how this proves anything other than accidents do happen.

Safety is relative. Do we have comparisons to similar systems around the world ? Has anyone written a report on IONs shortcomings in this respect?

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

The implementation of the Ion has been terrible. Bad enough that someone created a site to literally count every interaction with traffic/bikes/pedestrians:

ION Crash Counter

and if you were to do the same with the legacy streetcar network it would paint an even worse image than that site presents. The only difference is, most collisions involving the streetcars aren't all that newsworthy in Toronto.

 

[ZEBuilder]

The implementation of the Ion has been terrible. Bad enough that someone created a site to literally count every interaction with traffic/bikes/pedestrians:

ION Crash Counter

The ION has not been terrible by any stretch of the imagination. While it obviously isn't perfect it is still a system that is functional and something that doesn't exist in pretty much all similar sized metros in North America, one doesn't even have to look outside of Southern Ontario to realize this. KW has one, Hamilton and London both don't.

First the ION was planned in the early 2010s when KW was still by most peoples definition a small city, there were design choices made that in hindsight weren't the best however unlike every other municipality (except Ottawa) the Region of Waterloo actually had to fund it. The province and federal government only funded 2/3rds of the capital cost with the Region making up the rest, so yes it could be better but the Region of Waterloo spent over 300 million dollars on it, yet municipalities like Mississauga, Brampton and Hamilton just get thrown money to build them so of course when the municipality itself is funding it there are going to be cost saving measures implemented.

Implementation has also not been terrible, the primary reason KWs LRT didn't open on time was Bombardiers inability to provide trains on time. The original opening date was 2017 but it got pushed to 2019 almost exclusively because of the lack of vehicles. Sure the ION isn't anywhere near as complicated as Eglinton or even Hurontario but Metrolinx has the oversight on those and they've been complete fiascos which KW did not have.

Then just to explain the stats sure there has been about 65 collisions since the LRT opened but that was 2239 days ago, or 1 crash for every 34 days. There is approximately 1 million km travelled per year by the LRTs which means roughly 1 crash for every 90000km. That's far from the doom and gloom you are making it out to be.

Like any transit system there could be changes made to make the system better, be this better signal priority, KW has it but a few places behave in a weird way (nearside stations). Sure the signaling could be better on the train spurs (approaching Erb and approaching Hayward) but these aren't making the system terrible.

 

[zang]

The ION has not been terrible by any stretch of the imagination. While it obviously isn't perfect it is still a system that is functional and something that doesn't exist in pretty much all similar sized metros in North America, one doesn't even have to look outside of Southern Ontario to realize this. KW has one, Hamilton and London both don't.

The interaction of road and transit vehicles has been problematic.

The GRT even owned themselves pointing this out about two years ago.

I lived in KW most of the ‘00s and still have half my family living there. The Ion isn’t really held in a great light, even by locals. It’s often too slow, too infrequent, and too often dealing with cars. Why weren’t all road sections grade separated? You’re telling me that car interaction, after all human beings have learned after 150+ years of trams, is “good implementation”? This was a system planned and built entirely in the 21st century; not a legacy system like the TTC.

I’m one of the most pro transit people you’ll ever find, but OMG did they not plan Ion well. Is it really doing that much better than the iXpress bus it replaced?

Mississauga, Brampton and Hamilton just get thrown money to build them so of course when the municipality itself is funding it there are going to be cost saving measures implemented.

“Of course”. Yeah, but KW had a lot of their own money to throw at it. That area makes gobs of money. There’s a reason it was called Canada’s Silicon Valley for so long, and in part it’s because like The Valley it had tax revenue to throw at just about anything it wanted.

Implementation has also not been terrible, the primary reason KWs LRT didn't open on time was Bombardiers inability to provide trains on time. The original opening date was 2017 but it got pushed to 2019 almost exclusively because of the lack of vehicles.

Yeah, my mother’s apartment building literally backed onto the Ion line. Delays weren’t just because of vehicles, trust me.

Sure the ION isn't anywhere near as complicated as Eglinton or even Hurontario but Metrolinx has the oversight on those and they've been complete fiascos which KW did not have.

Have you looked into the BS that is phase 2? It’s already delayed, may end up being a BRT permanently, or not even connect to Phase 1 and stop at Preston. Cambridge are pushing for the BRT option hard, because they don’t have the tax base that K-W has, and could save a few bucks on capital. If Ion were a roaring success in the minds of the golden triangle, why the desire to switch to BRT?

Then just to explain the stats sure there has been about 65 collisions since the LRT opened but that was 2239 days ago, or 1 crash for every 34 days. There is approximately 1 million km travelled per year by the LRTs which means roughly 1 crash for every 90000km.

…For a system that runs quite a bit on a former rail corridors, operates only 15 vehicles total, and at its peak frequency runs one vehicle every ~15 minutes.

Collisions should be far less than about once a month on a modern day system.

Like any transit system there could be changes made to make the system better, be this better signal priority, KW has it but a few places behave in a weird way (nearside stations). Sure the signaling could be better on the train spurs (approaching Erb and approaching Hayward) but these aren't making the system terrible.

Crossing arms activating waaaaay too early or while a vehicle is in station aren’t a sign of good implementation are they?

 

[Steve X]

Has there been any testing today?
I think normal rapid transit lines are back up and running shortly after the injured people and vehicles are evacuated from the premises....

Operation seems pretty normal even through the incident area today. There were more trains out than normal. I wonder if they are close to starting revenue demonstration.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

The interaction of road and transit vehicles has been problematic.

The GRT even owned themselves pointing this out about two years ago.

I lived in KW most of the ‘00s and still have half my family living there. The Ion isn’t really held in a great light, even by locals. It’s often too slow, too infrequent, and too often dealing with cars. Why weren’t all road sections grade separated? You’re telling me that car interaction, after all human beings have learned after 150+ years of trams, is “good implementation”? This was a system planned and built entirely in the 21st century; not a legacy system like the TTC.

As someone who lived there before, during, and after ION construction and after the ION began running I can tell you without question that the only people who don't hold it in a good light are those who were never going to ride it in the first place (i.e. those who live in neighbourhoods on the edge of the city who don't even commute to work within the core.) The road-running sections weren't grade separated because it designed to have the ROW be used by emergency vehicles to bypass traffic (which was later backed out of by those same emergency services for reasons that don't make any logical sense).

I’m one of the most pro transit people you’ll ever find, but OMG did they not plan Ion well. Is it really doing that much better than the iXpress bus it replaced?

From my personal experience riding the system, the ION is pulling much more demand than the 200 iXpress and original 6 branches of the Route 7 bus combined. The larger vehicles often give the outward impression of a sparsely used route at the outer extremities (i.e. Mill to Fairway, R&T Park to Conestoga) where passengers are able to spread out evenly throughout the vehicles, however, if you were to take all the passengers on the train in those sections and put them into buses you would have a nearly full standard bus during the 6AM - 7:30 AM, 10-11:30 AM, 1PM-2PM, 7:30PM - 9PM trips, a nearly full articulated bus during the 7:30-8AM, 11:30-11:50AM, 6:30-7:30 PM and 9PM-10PM trips, and at least 2 half full articulated buses during the 8AM-10AM, 11:50-1PM, 2PM-6:30PM trip windows. Once the trains reach the section between Mill and UW stations, the trains start to crowd quite a bit. from September to June, high school students heavily crowd the ION in both directions during morning and afternoon peak periods whereas they didn't do the same with the 200 iXpress.

“Of course”. Yeah, but KW had a lot of their own money to throw at it. That area makes gobs of money. There’s a reason it was called Canada’s Silicon Valley for so long, and in part it’s because like The Valley it had tax revenue to throw at just about anything it wanted.

If the Region of Waterloo had the kind of tax revenues you speak of they wouldn't have needed to incrementally raise tax revenues from 2012-2018 by a combined 8.7%.

Have you looked into the BS that is phase 2? It’s already delayed, may end up being a BRT permanently, or not even connect to Phase 1 and stop at Preston. Cambridge are pushing for the BRT option hard, because they don’t have the tax base that K-W has, and could save a few bucks on capital.

The Regional councillors and Cambridge city council all prefer having the full Stage 2 ION plan built as an LRT, paid for by the provincial and federal governments.

…For a system that runs quite a bit on a former rail corridors, operates only 15 vehicles total, and at its peak frequency runs one vehicle every ~15 minutes.

Collisions should be far less than about once a month on a modern day system.

Trains operate every 10 minutes from 6 AM to 7 PM on weekdays. 100% of automobile collisions have been the result of careless driving, illegal turns, or failing to stop on the part of the driver of the automobile. They only need to operate 10 vehicles to provide that 10 minute service as the end-to-end runtime is 43 minutes and 30 seconds southbound and 44 minutes and 55 seconds northbound.

Crossing arms activating waaaaay too early or while a vehicle is in station aren’t a sign of good implementation are they?

This is something that cannot be changed as it's required by federal regulations especially given the chosen signalling system. Had they gone with ATC for the rail spur segments this timing could have been improved significantly, however, the use of manual driven trains under ATP means that the risk of a train overrunning the platform onto the roadways or pedestrian pathways outweighs the delays to other traffic.

 

[Admiral Beez]

First thing that crossed my mind was, how does a pedestrian walk in front of a train and not see it coming?

 

[zang]

As someone who lived there before, during, and after ION construction and after the ION began running I can tell you without question that the only people who don't hold it in a good light are those who were never going to ride it in the first place (i.e. those who live in neighbourhoods on the edge of the city who don't even commute to work within the core.)

Have you ever visited the GRT subreddit? The Ion isn't outright hated, but it's certainly not adored.

The road-running sections weren't grade separated because it designed to have the ROW be used by emergency vehicles to bypass traffic (which was later backed out of by those same emergency services for reasons that don't make any logical sense).

But again, good implementation could’ve allowed for grade separation *and* emergency vehicle usage. This isn’t a new idea; just one that was ignored in designing Ion. It was not well thought out, or even thought out to European tram standards from decades ago. This is why I objected to using it as an example of good car interaction. It's not.

From my personal experience riding the system, the ION is pulling much more demand than the 200 iXpress and original 6 branches of the Route 7 bus combined. The larger vehicles often give the outward impression of a sparsely used route at the outer extremities (i.e. Mill to Fairway, R&T Park to Conestoga) where passengers are able to spread out evenly throughout the vehicles, however, if you were to take all the passengers on the train in those sections and put them into buses you would have a nearly full standard bus during the 6AM - 7:30 AM, 10-11:30 AM, 1PM-2PM, 7:30PM - 9PM trips, a nearly full articulated bus during the 7:30-8AM, 11:30-11:50AM, 6:30-7:30 PM and 9PM-10PM trips, and at least 2 half full articulated buses during the 8AM-10AM, 11:50-1PM, 2PM-6:30PM trip windows. Once the trains reach the section between Mill and UW stations, the trains start to crowd quite a bit. from September to June, high school students heavily crowd the ION in both directions during morning and afternoon peak periods whereas they didn't do the same with the 200 iXpress.

Carrying more passengers doesn't automatically make it *better*.

If the Region of Waterloo had the kind of tax revenues you speak of they wouldn't have needed to incrementally raise tax revenues from 2012-2018 by a combined 8.7%.

And Silicon Valley still raises property taxes (albeit limited to 2% by California law).

Listen, ultimately someone's going to howl that this is way off topic, but I will say this: In the early 2000s, the Region of Waterloo had a lot of clout as the tech capital of Canada. They spent a lot of money on growth and expanding services, and when RIM started to die and other cities got in on the incentive game, a lot of that clout went down the tubes (See Microsoft, Google and others choosing to build HQs in Toronto instead). By this point though, the region has already put tonnes of money into capital with an expected level of quality to maintain.

The Regional councillors and Cambridge city council all prefer having the full Stage 2 ION plan built as an LRT, paid for by the provincial and federal governments.

And yet, the Mayor doesn't want it, and the vote is yet again going before the public with BRT as an option.

Trains operate every 10 minutes from 6 AM to 7 PM on weekdays. 100% of automobile collisions have been the result of careless driving, illegal turns, or failing to stop on the part of the driver of the automobile.

Again, allowing these problems (regardless of careless driving) in the first place is the issue. Outside of major intersections, why are cars allowed to right turn in front of Ion vehicles at all? Signals, bollards, modal filters, etc. aren't an invention of the 2020s.

This is something that cannot be changed as it's required by federal regulations especially given the chosen signalling system. Had they gone with ATC for the rail spur segments this timing could have been improved significantly, however, the use of manual driven trains under ATP means that the risk of a train overrunning the platform onto the roadways or pedestrian pathways outweighs the delays to other traffic.

And yet again, this is not a system to be put up as a great implementation of car interaction. It's simply not. It could (and should) have been built better in the first place.

 

[PL1]

First thing that crossed my mind was, how does a pedestrian walk in front of a train and no see it coming?

I can imagine a few scenarios.... Perhaps wearing headphones (although not many 64 year olds do), or maybe she had done this countless times over the previous years where there were no LRTs running, or some other distraction...

 

[zang]

I can imagine a few scenarios.... Perhaps wearing headphones (although not many 64 year olds do), or maybe she had done this countless times over the previous years where there were no LRTs running, or some other distraction...

In this case, I suspect just not bothering to look, or thinking that they can beat the train.

It could even come down to something like dementia.

Note; before someone decries this as agism, I personally have known someone with early onset Alzheimers (in their 50s) and another who's dementia was already in full swing in their 60s.

 

[dowlingm]

First thing that crossed my mind was, how does a pedestrian walk in front of a train and no see it coming?

Need some shiny yellow noses on those white LRVs I guess. Would probably be an aesthetic improvement TBF

 

[Thaboss]

As others have mentioned. I observed trains running yesterday so it would seem that this issue has been investigated and the risks deemed acceptable or at least not due to an inherent design or procedural flaw.


Whilst I'm saddened by what's happened, we need to remember that transit accidents happen and will continue happening. When evaluating overal safety of street level running transit, its important to understand that the alternative of stroads are massively less safe per km driven and passengers moved. - discussions of ION is proof that in search of absolute safety ppl may forget that fact.

 

[ZEBuilder]

But again, good implementation could’ve allowed for grade separation *and* emergency vehicle usage. This isn’t a new idea; just one that was ignored in designing Ion. It was not well thought out, or even thought out to European tram standards from decades ago. This is why I objected to using it as an example of good car interaction. It's not.

You are missing the simple point that KWs LRT would not have been built if it cost more and we'd be in the same situation London, Hamilton, Mississauga and Brampton all find themselves. The idea of grade separation was not ignored it was fundamentally never going to happen. There was barely the political will to build what we have, Cambridge would've been built but Doug Craig was adamant on not wanting it, even then KW still had to spend 300 million dollars to build it entirely from taxes on the residents. If KW needed to fund their LRT where's Mississauga funding there's? Or heaven forbid Toronto funding there's? The reality is grade separation was entirely out of the picture as KW did not have the money nor the political ability, you're off in fantasy land if you think that would ever be feasible without funds coming entirely from the province and feds (which it didn't and wouldn't).

Carrying more passengers doesn't automatically make it *better*.

Go take the 201 at rush hour and come back and say that. The ION simply moves more people with the ability to increase headways when required. The 201 and 12 are the two busiest routes that aren't the LRT and are standing room only much of the time. Now throw all the ION volumes onto those routes which are already skipping stops? It simple moves more people than the bus network ever will. It isn't perfect, that is known but it is in no way worse than the busses.

Again, allowing these problems (regardless of careless driving) in the first place is the issue. Outside of major intersections, why are cars allowed to right turn in front of Ion vehicles at all? Signals, bollards, modal filters, etc. aren't an invention of the 2020s.

Most of the accidents happen at signalized intersections, where drivers blatantly ignore the existing signals and signage. It is not inherently bad design, the reality is grade seperation and there wouldn't be an LRT. Now we have what we do but drivers are just complete idiots and ignore the signs and signals in place.

King and KCI has had 6 crashes, yet U turns are illegal heading northbound, and southbound LT is signal controlled.

King and Agnes has had 6 crashes, southbound and northbound you are not allowed to cross the tracks (yet idiot drivers still do). Agnes is signal controlled so they will only ever get a green when there is no LRT movement.

Ottawa and Courtland is signal controlled and has giant LED displays that light up showing no RT when the LRT is passing by yet has had 4 crashes.

Ottawa and Borden is the same thing yet has had 3 crashes.
King and Mount Hope also signalized has had 3 crashes.
King and Green is signalized and has had 5 crashes.
Caroline and William is signalized and has had 2 crashes.
King and Allen is signalized and has had 1 crash.
King and Union is signalized and has had 3 crashes.
Mill and Ottawa is signalized and has had 2 crashes.
Duke and Ontario is signalized and has had 4 crashes.
Charles and Queen is signalized and has had 2 crashes.
Charles and Cameron is signalized and has had 2 crashes.

So right there that's 43 of the 65 or so crashes at signalized intersections and I didn't even look at every single crash. So sure there are crashes where there is RT movements across the tracks at non signalized intersections but the reality is most of the crashes are occurring at places where people should be following signage and signals but don't.