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Metrolinx wants to continue with this type of agreement. Absolutely nobody is willing to make a bid on one though; this delayed GO Expansion and Union Station Expansion tenders. Ontario Line got the same type of response.

It's not an Ontario problem though, just a Metrolinx problem. Infrastructure Ontario continues to find numerous willing contractors for medical P3s (Hospitals, etc.).

I think its a transit problem.

Building a hospital on a plot of land is somewhat straightforward.

Building a transit line is much much more complex and riskier, and deals with many more issues (like the problems at Eglinton station)

I think the private sector is realizing that building transit is not profitable for them and not worth the risk.
 
At this point, I expect Crosslinx to deliver something as absolutely broken as RTG did in Ottawa. All while suing the province to rip off taxpayers as much as possible. What a total mess this project has become. I dread what will happen if Metrolinx continues to try and use these kind of agreements for projects like the Ontario Line.

RTG is comprised of ACS, Ellis-Don, SNC Lavalin

Crosslinx is comprised of ACS, Ellis-Don, SNC Lavalin and Aecon

So, yea, I'm not expecting the delivered product to be high quality, if the Ottawa LRT is any indication of what we can expect
 
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I think its a transit problem.

Building a hospital on a plot of land is somewhat straightforward.

Building a transit line is much much more complex and riskier, and deals with many more issues (like the problems at Eglinton station)

I've heard the term vertical construction vs horizontal construction to describe what you're talking about

Horizontal construction (highways, transit lines) are spread across dozens or hundreds of sites, so there are a lot more site-specific things that can go wrong.

Vertical construction (buildings, towers, etc...) are located at a single spot, which reduces the amount of things that can go wrong.


I think the private sector is realizing that building transit is not profitable for them and not worth the risk.

If this were the case, wouldn't we see similar troubles in other jurisdictions?
 
^There’s lots of literature demonstrating that large infrastructure projects are risky. Only a tiny minority come in on time and budget.

The problem is the political pressure that governments face when projects hit bumps. A lot of the motivation behind P3 is so that in theory, politicians and bureaucrats can use P3 to insulate themselves from risk. “The contract is air tight, the contractor has to deliver on time and on budget or they don’t get paid” kind of thing. In theory, it’s a silver bullet for the knee jerk “heads must roll” rabble that emerge whenever something goes wrong. Frankly I partly blame the media who get far more sales from reporting the bumps as major scandals than by trying to sort out the fine points. (How many of us remember how much of the TYSSE overruns and delay came from which problem?)

Unlike TYSSE or, just to pick an example, the Florence LRT network or the Oslo airport train, or the Seattle road tunnel, Crosstown has never faced a major shutdown-and-regroup event. It is proceeding pretty well. Its painful impact on the surface community was pretty predictable, although the pols did little to set expectations. I don’t think one can paint it as a project fiasco. But.... lawyers..... and a political organization (ML) that puts a high priority on positioning themselves as a lily-white fountain of unending good news, truth being dispensible.

I’m not advocating low standards, but “On time and on budget” is a claim that can seldom be achieved. If Crosstown turns out well, it won’t have been as big a wait as some might claim. What has been missing all along is transparency.

- Paul
 
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Eglinton Crosstown LRT October 2020
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Join us at our fall virtual open houses!
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You're invited to our upcoming virtual open houses! Please join us online to learn about the progress of the future Eglinton Crosstown stations and stops in your neighbourhood. You can ask questions by posting them on the website. The website will go live for the first open house at 6:30 p.m. on Wednesday, October 14.

Open HouseDateTimeLocation

Central West
(Fairbank Station – Eglinton Station)
Wednesday
October 14, 2020
6:30 p.m.Virtual – Metrolinx Engage

Central
(Chaplin Station – Leaside Station)
Wednesday
October 21, 2020
6:30 p.m.Virtual – Metrolinx Engage

Central East
(Eglinton Station to Science Centre Station)
Wednesday
October 28, 2020
6:30 p.m.Virtual – Metrolinx Engage

West
(Eglinton Maintenance and Storage Facility to Caledonia Station)
Wednesday
November 4, 2020
6:30 p.m.Virtual – Metrolinx Engage

East
(Science Centre Station to Kennedy Station)
Tuesday
November 10, 2020
6:30 p.m.Virtual – Metrolinx Engage
 
I'd love to take a peek at Crosslinx's finances, if only to get an understanding of what similar projects might cost in the future. Are they in the red hundreds of millions? Billions? Did the initial $5.4 Billion estimation from 2011ish anticipate the large escalations in the price of construction we've seen in Toronto over the years?
It's hundreds of millions. This is to be expected especially given Covid.
 
It's hundreds of millions. This is to be expected especially given Covid.

I suspect that the bidders who low balled ie crosslinx, bid on incomplete drawings and did not factor much for extras. They surprise everyone with an amazing number, but as shown, once changes are needed the dollars just keep on piling up.
Source: I work in the buildng construction consultant industry
 
I suspect that the bidders who low balled ie crosslinx, bid on incomplete drawings and did not factor much for extras. They surprise everyone with an amazing number, but as shown, once changes are needed the dollars just keep on piling up.
Source: I work in the buildng construction consultant industry
This is a design and built based on info provided by the city, Metrolinx and TTC, but you can only factor in so much for unknown before pricing yourself out of the picture on that info.

We have just seen a 1950 error surface unknown to TTC and everyone that will have to be added to the bill. It possible TTC knew about it and hope the low bidder would have to pickup the tab for the cost to fix it. My experience says Metrolinx will be on the hock for that cost since no bidder would assume there would be a structural problem during the bidding stage.

COVID-19 delays is not the responsibility of anyone, but a fact of life where cost will increase over time as well delay the project. If ML wants x opening day that requires more manpower, then they will have to pickup the extra cost to meet that date.

Unless plans are updated as work take place over the years on things, you will run into very few surprise that will cost more to do the work. One can look at St Clair W stations where drawings were not updated over the years only to have the Ministry of Labour shut down the site until all the electrical system drawings were updated after a number of workers were almost kill doing the work. Extra cost had to be pickup by TTC.

I have bid on x project based on drawing supply to all bidders only to find out once you open something up a great surprise that caused delays and extra cost is found.
 
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I think it's a well-documented consequence of any megaproject. Hospitals also have cost overruns, like the CHUM superhospital in Montreal. It's just that hospitals are generally less expensive (e.g. compared to the $9 billion Eglinton LRT) so the same percentage overrun is less in absolute value.

Lowballing offers, optimistic projections, unknown unknowns, etc. The bigger the scope, the bigger the potential for delay and cost increases.
 
I suspect that the bidders who low balled ie crosslinx, bid on incomplete drawings and did not factor much for extras. They surprise everyone with an amazing number, but as shown, once changes are needed the dollars just keep on piling up.
Source: I work in the buildng construction consultant industry

I know someone who was involved in a competing bid. His response was that "they have screwed themselves here - they have left absolutely zero room for error." His organization's bid was a half-billion higher because they accounted for some likely problems that they thought were bound to appear during construction, but he felt that considering how the project has gone that they still would have been in trouble.

Dan
 
Glazing Installation at Golden Mile, Birchmount, O'Connor and Wynford Stops
Date
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Shelter installation has been ongoing across the surface alignment for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT, beginning October 21, 2020, crews will perform glazing installation at the Wynford, O'Connor, Golden Mile and Birchmount stop shelters. Glazing consists of glass Installation works for the LRT shelters.
What to Expect
Single-day lane closures will be required for material deliveries and collection at each stop. Eastbound and westbound lane closures will be implemented at the Golden Mile (Warden Ave) and Birchmount stops on October 21 and 28, 2020 and at the Wynford and O'Connor (Victoria Park Ave) stops on November 9 and 16, 2020.
Hours of Work
  • Work will begin take place on October 21 and 28, 2020 at the Golden Mile and Birchmount stops.
  • Work will begin take place on November 9 and 16, 2020 at the Wynford and O’Connor stops.
  • Work may occur from 7:00 a.m. to 11:00 p.m., seven (7) days per week, Monday through Sunday.
  • Work may be rescheduled due to unforeseen circumstances.
Traffic & Pedestrian Details
  • Westbound traffic on Eglinton Ave E will be restricted to one lane west of each stop location.
  • Eastbound traffic on Eglinton Ave E will be restricted to one lane east of each stop location.
  • There will be no changes to existing pedestrian routes at the intersection.
Transit Information
  • There will be no changes to existing TTC stop locations at the intersection.
Other Information
  • Due to the nature of this work, at times there will be noise around the work area.
 

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