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There are engineers here, I am not one.

However, I feel confident in saying that 'no' you can't really make that switch beneficially or easily.

The routing would vary slightly, likely requiring further property acquisition.

But setting that to one side, the depths would be different. So you'd have to get the tunnel up to cut and cover depth, you'd also have to design that. Then there's the small matter of the stations which have all been designed for trains at deep bore depth.

I'm not sure how far along any stations sites are, but comprehensive re-design would add at least 2 years to the project time frame, probably longer.

If construction is at all advanced on any of the stations, there would be demolition and reconstruction to allow for the new depths likely removing a concourse level. It would be a very big deal.

Re-design also costs money, and lots of it.
I think the main question will be what the lessons to take away from this will be. The one I'm hoping for is maybe incidents like this, plus the fact that despite the goal with TBMs being to "reduce disruption" it really didn't accomplish that on Eglinton, means that the leaders at Metrolinx and our politician can finally move away from using TBMs as the one way we build subways no matter what.

Honestly probably not, I think I'm just inhaling a ton of hopium right now.
 
I think the main question will be what the lessons to take away from this will be. The one I'm hoping for is maybe incidents like this, plus the fact that despite the goal with TBMs being to "reduce disruption" it really didn't accomplish that on Eglinton, means that the leaders at Metrolinx and our politician can finally move away from using TBMs as the one way we build subways no matter what.

Honestly probably not, I think I'm just inhaling a ton of hopium right now.

Cut and Cover is highly disruptive.. too disruptive for most areas.

Elevated lines are not going to fly in a residential area.
 
I think the main question will be what the lessons to take away from this will be. The one I'm hoping for is maybe incidents like this, plus the fact that despite the goal with TBMs being to "reduce disruption" it really didn't accomplish that on Eglinton, means that the leaders at Metrolinx and our politician can finally move away from using TBMs as the one way we build subways no matter what.

Honestly probably not, I think I'm just inhaling a ton of hopium right now.
Given the disruption track record of bored tunnels, I'm not sure why this belief still exists. There's lots of good reasons to use a TBM, but the promise of less disruption is often a false one

Example: Business's in Vancouver demanded that they didn't use cut and cover for Broadway because it caused 3.5 years of disruption for the Canada Line



Instead they have what looks like 7 years of disruption

 
Cut and Cover is highly disruptive.. too disruptive for most areas.

Sometimes, but not always, by any means.

Elevated lines are not going to fly in a residential area.

Certainly they will draw more opposition. I tend to be suspicious of the choice in Toronto because I don't think many people fully understand the trades involved, and the short-term gains aren't as exciting
as the long term detriments in many cases. Nor are the gains (cost savings) as large as many imagine, unless you trade away significant capacity.

Some elevated absolutely works.........but when we talk about best-in-class subway construction, Madrid comes up regularly and they are not big on elevated.

Its important to understand why, and how they deliver at lower costs vs North America writ large......... its not about elevation.

That said, I don't think elevation should be ruled out, out of hand...........unless its Durham Region proposing a Gondola..........
 
Given the disruption track record of bored tunnels, I'm not sure why this belief still exists. There's lots of good reasons to use a TBM, but the promise of less disruption is often a false one

Example: Business's in Vancouver demanded that they didn't use cut and cover for Broadway because it caused 3.5 years of disruption for the Canada Line



Instead they have what looks like 7 years of disruption

The challenge we have is no one wants disruptions,yet no matter what method is used, disruptions will happen. Ironically, for some businesses, especially the ones closer to the stations, once the construction is over, they stand to gain more customers from the project.
 
Cut and Cover is highly disruptive.. too disruptive for most areas.

Elevated lines are not going to fly in a residential area.
I definitely see it as a case of a lot of disruption over a short time period vs less disruption over a long time period. Fact of the matter is, construction on Eglinton has been very disruptive, so much so that it has had a very significant and negative impact on residents and businesses. For another example, I know somebody who lives near Greektown, works in Markham, and complains about how construction has made Pape completely undrivable - and that makes sense because the difference between an undrivable street and a street with undrivable intersections is more or less the same: it results in gridlock and a sense of "I'd rather be anywhere else". Even if you ignore driving and focus on pedestrians and non-vehicular experiences, a street that is only torn open at key intersections isn't that much better or less disruptive than a street that is torn open entirely - especially since the intersections are usually the most important part of a street with the most things around it. So the only real difference remaining is how long disruption lasts, and this is something that TBM based construction fails miserably at.
 
Instead they have what looks like 7 years of disruption
There's a huge difference though in the level of interruption. When you go along West Broadway, you can go for blocks without seeing any disruption. It's clustered around the station locations. And the big interruption won't last for 7 years. I haven't found the stores inaccessible - it will discourage some business for a few places.

Car drivers seem to want to avoid it - but honestly, I haven't noticed driving being much different.

Most of Cambie though is a different street than West Broadway. It's a six lane artery, and not much retail except between West 16th and West 6th; and even then not particularly dense. I didn't see much of it during construction, but it would have caused a lot less disruption as cut-and-cover than West Broadway would have had.
 
There's a huge difference though in the level of interruption. When you go along West Broadway, you can go for blocks without seeing any disruption. It's clustered around the station locations. And the big interruption won't last for 7 years. I haven't found the stores inaccessible - it will discourage some business for a few places.

Car drivers seem to want to avoid it - but honestly, I haven't noticed driving being much different.

Most of Cambie though is a different street than West Broadway. It's a six lane artery, and not much retail except between West 16th and West 6th; and even then not particularly dense. I didn't see much of it during construction, but it would have caused a lot less disruption as cut-and-cover than West Broadway would have had.

I can't speak for Broadway as well, but in Ottawa the station disruptions blocked all the key intersections, making the area inaccessible by cars and undesirable by pedestrians for longer than the cut and cover option would have taken, even though the points between stations were relatively unscathed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying tunnels built by TBMs or SEM are bad choices. I'm saying politicians greatly understate what the impact of tunnel construction will be in a neighborhood when TBMs are chosen. They sometimes force the cut and cover option off the table rather than looking holistically at all the pros and cons
 
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Anyway since that decision is already done for the SSE, is Metrolinx still projecting the same completion time as their official comms is that the TBM is just undergoing planned maintenance?
 
I can't speak for Broadway as well, but in Ottawa the station disruptions blocked all the key intersections, making the area inaccessible by cars and undesirable by pedestrians for longer than the cut and cover option would have taken, even though the points between stations were relatively unscathed.
In Ottawa, what do you mean by "inaccessible to cars"?

There's lane-width reductions and lane closures on West Broadway, but I'm yet to go down it and had any full closures. I'm sure that does happen on occasion - perhaps overnight?

Even on Eglinton, I don't recall any extended east-west closures on Eglinton - but to be honest I mostly avoided it, and personal circumstances are that I've seen a lot more of the West Broadway work than the Eglinton work.

I can’t wait for the Eglinton West extension station excavations to hit their stride….once those privileged central Etobicoke residents weigh in on disruption at the deep station sites, we may see legislation banning tbm’s altogether.
Which station would this be a problem for? There's huge swaths of land available there to dig holes outside the roadway, and to divert lanes while they are digging.

Back to this line, I haven't seen any closures, despite all the construction sites along Danforth and McCowan.
 
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There's huge swathes of land available there to run a set of tracks above ground instead of tunneling.
 
There's huge swathes of land available there to run a set of tracks above ground instead of tunneling.
While overhead may be easier for avoiding construction woes in the community, when operational,they do pose a bigger problem in winter.
 
In Ottawa, what do you mean by "inaccessible to cars"?

There's lane-width reductions and lane closures on West Broadway, but I'm yet to go down it and had any full closures. I'm sure that does happen on occasion - perhaps overnight?

Even on Eglinton, I don't recall any extended east-west closures on Eglinton - but to be honest I mostly avoided it, and personal circumstances are that I've seen a lot more of the West Broadway work than the Eglinton work.

Which station would this be a problem for? There's huge swaths of land available there to dig holes outside the roadway, and to divert lanes while they are digging.

Back to this line, I haven't seen any closures, despite all the construction sites along Danforth and McCowan.
Queen street is a much narrower street than Eglinton or Broadway. The station shafts for entrances and ventilation required full intersection closures at Queen and O'Conner and at Queen and Lyon, and after partial reopening allowed only a single lane, so forcing unidirectional travel.

There was so little clearance between the tunnel and building foundations they actually bumped into one


Anyway this was a case where cut and cover wouldn't have been less disruptive. For Broadway they probably would have picked a TBM anyway, as they had to go deep to go under the Canada line. The point was that it was ruled out by politicians, not engineers. Politicians shouldn't be the one choosing the tunnel tech
 
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