[ARG1]

That's only if they follow the current TTC rules and Toronto Transportation Services traffic priorities . Currently Transportation Services prioritizes the single-occupant automobile. At present, the TTC streetcar and possible light rail network is the slowest in the world.

View attachment 670419

See https://t.co/PUpHoVyctk

These are some hefty numbers that quite literally don't have any context attached to them. Whilst I'm not going defend Toronto's operational practices because you are generally right in terms of how bad it is - much of this list consists of making literal apples to oranges comparisons between systems. Why is Toronto 2024 being compared to Sydney 2011 - back when the city only had a single Tram line that mostly ran in an abandoned freight spur that featured heavy grade separation.

This isn't, and will never be a fair comparison.

To your overall point: it's also strange to equate a suburban tram line with dedicated lanes (which is what Eglinton East will be) to a downtown streetcar that mostly consists of mixed traffic segments that has to deal with a compact Downtown Toronto grid. I doubt the people who wrote this Business Case were basing their findings off of how the existing Streetcar Network performs in Downtown Toronto.

 

[micheal_can]

You don't think the built form of this area of Scarborough justifies both a subway extension and multiple LRT lines, do you?

The most cost-effective solution for that would be to finish the Ellesmere BRT, so local buses can cross over the 401 and allow transfers in both directions to Scarborough Centre and downtown Pickering. I would paint some bus lanes to where the Line 4 extension either ends or diverges off Sheppard, too.

Money that isn't spent on higher-order projects of dubious demand is money that doesn't need to be taxed out of Scarborough, and low taxes is what I'm led to believe they really want...

I do not mean build it all now. I do mean than as more money becomes available, and as other projects around the city and province finish, we could see not just an LRT or a subway in this area. Just like many areas where transit expansion has slowed to a crawl, There is a high demand that will only grow. The first expansion I would expect in this area would be an extension of the subway to meet Line 2. That does not mean that once that is open that it will be all that will ever be needed. Having parts of the EECLRT revived and built as well would also be something that would make sense. Heck, even having some sort of RT for the Zoo might even make sense. However,I doubt much more than the extension of Line 4 to meet Line 2 will happen within the next few decades. The other thing is, we do not know what will change in the area with the Line 2 extension, let alone a Line 4 extension.. And all of this ignores any need for any BRT which could be used to help build the need for LRT/Subway expansion.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

I do not mean build it all now. I do mean than as more money becomes available, and as other projects around the city and province finish, we could see not just an LRT or a subway in this area. Just like many areas where transit expansion has slowed to a crawl, There is a high demand that will only grow. The first expansion I would expect in this area would be an extension of the subway to meet Line 2. That does not mean that once that is open that it will be all that will ever be needed. Having parts of the EECLRT revived and built as well would also be something that would make sense. Heck, even having some sort of RT for the Zoo might even make sense. However,I doubt much more than the extension of Line 4 to meet Line 2 will happen within the next few decades. The other thing is, we do not know what will change in the area with the Line 2 extension, let alone a Line 4 extension.. And all of this ignores any need for any BRT which could be used to help build the need for LRT/Subway expansion.

The trouble Toronto has is that the powers that be do not want to build any rapid transit in the city or GTA. We're are very slow in expanding Toronto rapid transit network. In fact, Toronto shrank between 2010 and 2024.

 

[micheal_can]

The trouble Toronto has is that the powers that be do not want to build any rapid transit in the city or GTA. We're are very slow in expanding Toronto rapid transit network. In fact, Toronto shrank between 2010 and 2024.

View attachment 670477

That is my point. But, as a dreamer,I do look at how things could be improved if there was the demand and the funding.

As far as this line going east, I do not expect it to go much more east than Line 2's extension unless it is for a maintenance facility. I do think it will be a traditional subway. I do think that after it is built, it will be decades before anything else is built.

 

[ARG1]

The trouble Toronto has is that the powers that be do not want to build any rapid transit in the city or GTA. We're are very slow in expanding Toronto rapid transit network. In fact, Toronto shrank between 2010 and 2024.

Can we not spread this unhelpful doomerism? Toronto literally has the fastest growing rail network on the continent right now in terms of what's under construction - beating out what cities like LA are doing. That's 31.4km of subway, 38.3km of tram (much of which is grade separated), we're still electrifying and improving service on many GO lines (despite how many people on this forum desperately want to convince themselves and others that we're not), and more. No, the powers at be absolutely want to build rapid transit - our issues since the new millenium has been less about whether or not we build transit, but rather disagreeing on what exactly should be built. Every major politician from all levels of government since Dalton became Premier has been interested in expanding Toronto's transit network.

And no, Toronto's system didn't shrink between 2010 and 2024. The TYSSE was 8.6km long, and the Scarborough RT was 6.4km long. Objectively Speaking, the Toronto Subway is still very much in the green in terms of expansion.

 

[micheal_can]

Can we not spread this unhelpful doomerism? Toronto literally has the fastest growing rail network on the continent right now in terms of what's under construction - beating out what cities like LA are doing. That's 31.4km of subway, 38.3km of tram (much of which is grade separated), we're still electrifying and improving service on many GO lines (despite how many people on this forum desperately want to convince themselves and others that we're not), and more. No, the powers at be absolutely want to build rapid transit - our issues since the new millenium has been less about whether or not we build transit, but rather disagreeing on what exactly should be built. Every major politician from all levels of government since Dalton became Premier has been interested in expanding Toronto's transit network.

And no, Toronto's system didn't shrink between 2010 and 2024. The TYSSE was 8.6km long, and the Scarborough RT was 6.4km long. Objectively Speaking, the Toronto Subway is still very much in the green in terms of expansion.

For the last 20 years, you are absolutely correct. For the history of the city and it's first interurbans, that is not as true. However, there does not seem to be a desire to stop expanding the transit, so, an announcement of this line being expanded is realistically possible by 2030. We don't,and won't have China's transit growth, but, that is not really the best answer either.

 

[KhalilHeron]

The EELRT branches off & goes to Malvern town center, the heart of Malvern, how wouldn't that serve Malvern residents, plus it hits the Morningside corridor, east of McCowan corridor on Eglinton and then would meet up at Sheppard & McCowan for a transit hub there
There's not really much you can tell me to disapprove of the EELRT when I live & use that corridor frequently and would love to be on LRT for those trips rather than a Bus even if the time savings is minimal, nor do I think it would be minimal if it included TSP or even better if it was elevated

The EELRT will mostly benefit people living right next to the stops. Eglinton E has a lot of bus routes the TTC plans to cut back once the LRT opens. I’m on one of them, and instead of a direct trip to Kennedy I’d have to transfer to the LRT, making the trip significantly longer. Can’t say for sure what the network will look like, but the 86 and 116 will probably get cut back. Many areas along the routes only had frequent service because they were part of the trunk the LRT’s replacing. Putting that money towards a shorter eastern subway (line 4 or somehow 5 if the gods will it) I think would do the average rider and Scarborough a lot better. UTSC, centennial, and/or west hill could make good transit hubs for eastern scarborough but only if that transit is faster than the bus

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

The EELRT will mostly benefit people living right next to the stops. Eglinton E has a lot of bus routes the TTC plans to cut back once the LRT opens. I’m on one of them, and instead of a direct trip to Kennedy I’d have to transfer to the LRT, making the trip significantly longer. Can’t say for sure what the network will look like, but the 86 and 116 will probably get cut back. Many areas along the routes only had frequent service because they were part of the trunk the LRT’s replacing. Putting that money towards a shorter eastern subway (line 4 or somehow 5 if the gods will it) I think would do the average rider and Scarborough a lot better. UTSC, centennial, and/or west hill could make good transit hubs for eastern scarborough but only if that transit is faster than the bus

With work from home, there would be less need for the rapid transit lines to be a commuter route. However, they would become a local route for shopping, medical, recreation, entertainment, and for travelling to friends. In which case, the LRT's shorter stations would be better than a subway's far station locations.

(GO trains could be used for much longer distances.)

 

[JBR]

This thread went sideways fast lol

Let’s all agree at minimum that there is a need to extend Sheppard west to connect line1 and east to connect to BD (either at McCowan/Sheppard or STC is still a hot topic)

 

[CapitalSeven]

I don't agree that it's a high priority, but I'll admit the ship has sailed. I'll be interested to see what route and technology go forward, at what preposterous cost per mile and rider.

 

[kev1n1m]

The trouble Toronto has is that the powers that be do not want to build any rapid transit in the city or GTA. We're are very slow in expanding Toronto rapid transit network. In fact, Toronto shrank between 2010 and 2024.

View attachment 670477

This feels like something an outsider would post to mock Toronto's slow progress on transit, but in reality we're building three new lines at once (3, 5 & 6), expanding nearly every existing and future line, and expanding regional transit at an alarming rate. You can't post this on this forum with any seriousness because we all know what's coming unless you think we're idiots.

 

[dowlingm]

The trouble Toronto has is that the powers that be do not want to build any rapid transit in the city or GTA. We're are very slow in expanding Toronto rapid transit network. In fact, Toronto shrank between 2010 and 2024.

View attachment 670477

The question posed by the above maps is how a city of 16 million people - roughly that of the entire province of Ontario - had no rapid transit before 2010.

Chengdu Metro - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[T3G]

and expanding regional transit at an alarming rate.

This is the only part of your statement I am dubious of. What qualifies as expanding regional transit? The only thing alarming about GO expansion is how slowly it's coming along.

 

[micheal_can]

This feels like something an outsider would post to mock Toronto's slow progress on transit, but in reality we're building three new lines at once (3, 5 & 6), expanding nearly every existing and future line, and expanding regional transit at an alarming rate. You can't post this on this forum with any seriousness because we all know what's coming unless you think we're idiots.

Since roughly 2000, there have been several transit lines under construction at the same time throughout that time. It is doubtful that is going to stop in the near future. The question is whether Line 4 or any LRT in the area will be done any time soon.

 

[NotACop123]

The trouble Toronto has is that the powers that be do not want to build any rapid transit in the city or GTA. We're are very slow in expanding Toronto rapid transit network. In fact, Toronto shrank between 2010 and 2024.

View attachment 670477

A little besides the point but that 2010 map is wrong, it mistakenly includes Downsview Park which only opened in 2017 (also incorrectly calling it Downsview and Downsview as Sheppard West which it was not then known as)