[ericmacm]

The City of London made a controversial, surprise pivot in its Mobility Master Plan - city council voted to pursue discussions with Middlesex County and the province to start planning the long-discussed London Ring Road. Transportation talks with Middlesex County started this week and all members present voted to pursue an "integrated transportation plan" but they still have yet to engage with the province. Significant population growth in Middlesex County communities north and west of the city (Komoka-Kilworth, Lucan, Ilderton, Strathroy) are what is driving the discussion, with specific concerns now targeted at the east-west commuter traffic along Oxford Street/Glendon Drive. I am not confident that a Ring Road is the best solution to London's traffic problems, but there is a good chance that high population growth in Middlesex County may eventually necessitate it.

In the draft maps from the Mobility Master Plan (prior to this shift), the plan already showed intersection improvements for Veteran's Memorial Parkway along the east side of the city which are most likely the planned interchanges from years ago, most of which are pushed to a 2050+ time horizon.

 

[EYorker]

The new bridge that is being built at Leslie and 401 - is this meant for the Leslie St SB to 401 EB on-ramp? Or is this to replace the collector lanes?

Part of a series of bridge rehabilitation projects, I believe. Not sure if they will change the lane configuration long term, though I recall reading that. Some details here from AECOM

I finally found the TESR for Leslie/401 rehabilitation buried somewhere on my computer. I'm attaching the more relevant bits here.

 

[nfitz]

That's the 2012 study

I finally found the TESR for Leslie/401 rehabilitation buried somewhere on my computer. I'm attaching the more relevant bits here.

That's the 2012 study I think.

There's also this consultation website, which is almost contentless - other than the commencement of study notice, that has a June 2023 date on the PDF file - https://hwy401avenue-to-warden-ebexpress.com/

 

[innsertnamehere]

I don't think a London Ring Road would be particularly useful as it stands today - but it would be wise to at least protect land for it in the future and get it into Official Plans with a rough alignment to protect the corridor from development. I imagine it would want to use the Veterans Memorial Parkway alignment along the east side of the city and loop westward towards the 402 somewhere north of Komoka.

The VMP alignment is rather substandard for a 400-series highway however, specifically around the airport which has several ~550 metre radius turns. While that would be far from the most substandard turn on the provincial freeway network, it is far below the modern minimum standard for a 110km/h, 400-series highway of ~950m (and the preferred standard of 1,200m). It would likely necessitate a reduced 90km/h speed limit for the VMP portion of the ring road unless MTO did some major expropriation.

Perhaps the plan could be to build a 400-series standard road along the north side of London to protect for a potential eventual extension to Stratford / Kitchener and then have a lower standard "parkway" type connection along the VMP down to the 401.

 

[Haljackey]

Highway 3 freeway updated plan

https://pub-stthomas.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=2202

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Edit- Submitted it to reddit too some interesting comments

https://www.reddit.com/r/londonontario/comments/1jugivl/highway_3_freeway_updated_plan

 

[innsertnamehere]

Notably that the construction is expected to start in July 2025.

Incredibly quickly compared to other highway projects in the province. Now if only MTO could get that kind of motivation on the other "funded" roads that have been hanging around for decades...

 

[just east of the creek]

I would suggest that the need for 3-4 lanes eastbound from Whitby is over stated. I travel the route frequently enough to believe that expansions should be concentrated through urban areas, Trenton etc, some of the hillier sections and steeper grades (especially in merging areas and some approaches to service areas). Beyond that, I am not sold on the immediate need for 3-4 lanes continuously to the Quebec border, especially after Kingston and most definitely after the cutoffs for Ottawa.

I think we need to be a little more fiscally responsible in our requests to satisfy our absolute needs.

Personally speaking, improve the VIA service between Montreal, Kingston and Toronto, and that is where I would be spending money.

Having just spent Thursday/Friday on this stretch again, I would double down on these thoughts. Improvements through Port Hope, Coburg, Brighton, Trenton, Bellville, Napanee, Kingston, Gananoque and some of the hills of Northumberland County would do much to improve traffic flow in times of higher use and concentrations of truck traffic.

All of these areas would be a minimum three lanes, with four lanes in some specific areas I.e. up “4 way flasher” grades for trucks leading to service or other exits. . Extensions to three lanes of traffic a couple of km past each urban location (in the case of Kingston, westbound up the grade past the existing three lane area and the HWY 15 exit and over the crest of the ridge, allowing heavy loads to attain a respectable speed. Same with Brighton.

With this request, we are catering to the 130 kmh plus crowd, something to keep in consideration.

Next week it’s back to VIA because as nice as the new RAM truck is with the screen that looks like a sheet of plywood, it’s so large, it’s hard to keep all the charts visible AND drive at the prevailing speeds while towing and chewing up fuel at better then 14L/100km. Oh yes, and enjoy a beverage of choice with an alcoholic content….

I still believe that improving speed and service on the VIA line would see measurable increases in usage and the resulting need for more service. Getting to 200 kmh would be a step forwards (And I know there are multitudes of technical and running rights issues - all solvable with the endless supply of $’s controlled by the cabinent office. Just saying).

 

[ARG1]

Highway 3 freeway updated plan

https://pub-stthomas.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=2202

-----

Edit- Submitted it to reddit too some interesting comments

https://www.reddit.com/r/londonontario/comments/1jugivl/highway_3_freeway_updated_plan

So this just dumps people off at Highway 4 and expects them to drive on the local road to the 401? Doesn't exactly seem like the smartest design decision.

 

[MichaelGeorge]

Part of a series of bridge rehabilitation projects, I believe. Not sure if they will change the lane configuration long term, though I recall reading that. Some details here from AECOM

Is that link article, why there is more volumes of traffic in that on section? Or is it just a bottleneck of highway 404?

 

[MichaelGeorge]

Also, why is on-11 and on-17 not twinned yet, and on-17 not named trans Canada highway 1, and why is 401 not a Trans Canada highway yet?

 

[north-of-anything]

Also, why is on-11 and on-17 not twinned yet, and on-17 not named trans Canada highway 1, and why is 401 not a Trans Canada highway yet?

Is the reason for ON-11 and ON-17 to be twinned because it's the Trans-Canada Highway? Because if that's the reason, then there's no financial case. Travel demand simply doesn't warrant twinning the entire stretch of both highways.

As for the 401, it's not a Trans-Canada Highway because it's not trans-Canada.

 

[ericmacm]

So this just dumps people off at Highway 4 and expects them to drive on the local road to the 401? Doesn't exactly seem like the smartest design decision.

The name of the game with this highway is providing a free-flowing connection to the VW Battery Plant quickly. At the end of the day, this achieves the goal of a free-flowing four-lane connection due to the fact that Sunset/Colonel Talbot Road does not have any traffic lights in this section. It is a very underutilized and overbuilt road.

Obviously, the ideal design for a full buildout would include a further extension and a proper freeway-to-freeway interchange with HWY 401, most likely near the intersection with Southminster Bourne, but that would add extra years to the project timeline.

 

[ARG1]

Also, why is on-11 and on-17 not twinned yet

Because twinning a bunch of highways through unpopulated Canadian Shield wastelands is extremely expensive and likely wouldn't be worth the cost

and on-17 not named trans Canada highway 1

Because there is no such thing as "Trans Canada Highway 1". What you might think of as "Trans Canada Highway 1" is actually just BC Highway 1, Alberta Highway 1, Saskatchewan Highway 1, and Manitoba Provincial Trunk Highway 1. They simply mutually agreed to number their section of the TCH as Highway 1, and also share the design motif of a 1 embossed in the TCH Leaf. This was not something imposed from on-high. It was also easy for all 4 of these provinces to number as such since the highway runs more or less through the most populated segments of their provinces. This is actually why Ontario doesn't have a Highway 1, there were too many population centres that were clamoring to be served by "Highway 1" that the province took the compromise approach of simply not having one.

, and why is 401 not a Trans Canada highway yet?

I think you misunderstand what the Trans Canada Highway is, and I don't blame you since you're very much not alone in thinking this way. Long story short, the Trans Canada Highway isn't a highway network, and it is certainly not the Canadian equivalent of the US Interstate Highway Network. It is simply a single designated cross continental route that was enshrined by the Federal Government with a special name. That's it, its just branding that designates the primary inter provincial route. Any diversions or branches that exist are simply that: Diversions. Highway 11 for instance isn't a standalone "Trans Canada Highway", but rather a diversion/alternate route of the main Highway, known as the "Northern Ontario Route". Meanwhile Highways like Highway 16 in the western 4 provinces, even though it uses the same white on green maple leaf design, isn't part of the Trans Canada Highway at all, but rather what's known as the "Yellowhead Highway", and has nothing to do with the TCH outside the shield design.

As for why the Southern Ontario Route uses Highway 12 and 7 instead of 400 and 401, go ask the Federal government. At this point its a relic of a bygone era and I don't see why the alternate routes through Ontario should even be considered part of the TCH.

 

[ShonTron]

It’s definitely from a bygone era. I’ve written in detail about this here before.

There was federal funding to upgrade the sections of highways designated as the Trans Canada Highway. In Alberta and BC, this allowed for a high quality two-lane highway across the mountains (that’s been upgraded further since). In the Prairies, it allowed for the construction of proper higher-speed bypasses around midsized cities like Medicine Hat, Moose Jaw, and Brandon.

In Ontario, it was just supposed to provide a high quality continuous route from Manitoba to Québec through the Nation’s Capital. The province spent the money to accelerate the completion of Highway 17 along the Lake Superior coast, building Highway 103 along Georgian Bay (later part of 69 and now 400) building bypasses around cities and towns like North Bay, Pembroke, Peterborough, Orillia, and the Queensway through Ottawa. Québec and the Maritimes used the funds to upgrade their existing highways as well.

The reason why most of the TCH doesn’t need to be a freeway in Ontario is that traffic is much lower, and there are redundancies. Highway 11, part of the TCH, takes a lot of the truck traffic between North Bay and Nipigon. It’s a somewhat longer, more boring drive, but it’s flatter and more reliable. Passenger traffic usually takes the shorter and more scenic 17, unless weather closes it (11 is rarely closed; 17 is often closed along Lake Superior in winter). The province is dragging its heels completing the 11/17 joint section between Nipigon and Thunder Bay (which has no alternative routes) and is slowly working on Kenora-Manitoba.

The sections of highways the province should prioritize – Highway 7 between Kitchener and Guelph, the Morrison Bypass for Highway 6, and Highway 17 west of Arnprior – are what most people here will complain about.

 

[lenaitch]

Also, why is on-11 and on-17 not twinned yet

Do you have any concept of the distances and terrain involved? The MTO is very slowly expanding Hwy 17 into 417 north from Arnprior and is twinning 11/17 in the Thunder Bay-Nipigon area and Hwy 17 in the Kenora area, but nobody here will see either of them fully expanded to their western limits in our lifetime. This level of expansion happens in single or double digit distances every couple of years; here you are talking about a couple of thousand kilometers between the two routes. While divided highways would no doubt result in a safer and less stressful drive, if you look at the traffic volumes outside of urban and inter-urban areas, they are quite low and well below the levels that would justify expansion, absent other factors.

Because twinning a bunch of highways through unpopulated Canadian Shield wastelands is extremely expensive and likely wouldn't be worth the cost

Because there is no such thing as "Trans Canada Highway 1". What you might think of as "Trans Canada Highway 1" is actually just BC Highway 1, Alberta Highway 1, Saskatchewan Highway 1, and Manitoba Provincial Trunk Highway 1. They simply mutually agreed to number their section of the TCH as Highway 1, and also share the design motif of a 1 embossed in the TCH Leaf. This was not something imposed from on-high. It was also easy for all 4 of these provinces to number as such since the highway runs more or less through the most populated segments of their provinces. This is actually why Ontario doesn't have a Highway 1, there were too many population centres that were clamoring to be served by "Highway 1" that the province took the compromise approach of simply not having one.

I think you misunderstand what the Trans Canada Highway is, and I don't blame you since you're very much not alone in thinking this way. Long story short, the Trans Canada Highway isn't a highway network, and it is certainly not the Canadian equivalent of the US Interstate Highway Network. It is simply a single designated cross continental route that was enshrined by the Federal Government with a special name. That's it, its just branding that designates the primary inter provincial route. Any diversions or branches that exist are simply that: Diversions. Highway 11 for instance isn't a standalone "Trans Canada Highway", but rather a diversion/alternate route of the main Highway, known as the "Northern Ontario Route". Meanwhile Highways like Highway 16 in the western 4 provinces, even though it uses the same white on green maple leaf design, isn't part of the Trans Canada Highway at all, but rather what's known as the "Yellowhead Highway", and has nothing to do with the TCH outside the shield design.

As for why the Southern Ontario Route uses Highway 12 and 7 instead of 400 and 401, go ask the Federal government. At this point its a relic of a bygone era and I don't see why the alternate routes through Ontario should even be considered part of the TCH.

Interstate envy.