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The toll you pay for taking transit is for the service provided (operators, fuel, electricity). The infrastructures the vehicles run on were from taxes.
I understand that. But I believe for people to make better decisions about where they live, where they are transiting to, and how they transit, that cars should pay an upfront transit fare, as anyone else does who hops the bus or rides the train etc.
 
I understand that. But I believe for people to make better decisions about where they live, where they are transiting to, and how they transit, that cars should pay an upfront transit fare, as anyone else does who hops the bus or rides the train etc.
Not that simple.

Unless some can afford a place near where they work, they have to live some place where they can afforded to do so. Then if someone did live near where they work, they could be forced to travel future due to the company downsizing, close the doors or relocate to where they now have to drive to. People don't want to up root their children life style and friends so someone can be closer to their work now than before.

I been up rooted a number of times as a child as well doing so with my children beyond my control.
 
Not that simple.

Unless some can afford a place near where they work, they have to live some place where they can afforded to do so. Then if someone did live near where they work, they could be forced to travel future due to the company downsizing, close the doors or relocate to where they now have to drive to. People don't want to up root their children life style and friends so someone can be closer to their work now than before.

I been up rooted a number of times as a child as well doing so with my children beyond my control.
Good points! I remember the young crown on reddit say "just move" whenever people complain about commutes, not realizing people a. have partners/kids b. closing costs on real estate can easily be $100,000+
 
Good points! I remember the young crown on reddit say "just move" whenever people complain about commutes, not realizing people a. have partners/kids b. closing costs on real estate can easily be $100,000+
Which is why the answer is to not get a job that requires such commutes. (or don't stay in one, if you had to start somewhere).
 
Not that simple.

Unless some can afford a place near where they work, they have to live some place where they can afforded to do so. Then if someone did live near where they work, they could be forced to travel future due to the company downsizing, close the doors or relocate to where they now have to drive to. People don't want to up root their children life style and friends so someone can be closer to their work now than before.

I been up rooted a number of times as a child as well doing so with my children beyond my control.
Nothing is easy. I have been moved when I was young and moved during my working career. It is a fact of life for many. I googled out of curiosity and a figure of 11.7 times was quoted for the average American. That seems pretty high but there it is.

I did say 'better choices'. and making better choices is just not the individuals responsibility, but it is also how we organize our society and our urban areas with better, faster, more connected cities, cities with larger pools of affordable, geared to income housing. Other cities do it, T.O. can too. We talk enough on these forums about better transit, transit that has priority at signals, transit that is separated from car traffic. We do the same with housing, parks, and development in general. But all of this is not overnight change. And probably not achieved perfectly, because perfect is only a state of mind that exists when UT members start drawing lines on maps. But it also starts with accepting that the car is a cost. A transit cost. And a cost to society. So paying a transit fare for car usage recoups some of that cost.

It is also too easy to say, "well our taxes pay for that". Well really not. For instance 2022. Ontario's revenue per capita was the lowest in Canada. And Ontario was one of 5 provinces to record a deficit per capita that year - $422. That does not sound like a lot, but multiply it by the number of people in your household, and the accumulated effect of those deficits is a per capita debt of $19,436, over 100% higher then any other province in Canada. And the interest payment on that was $927 per capita. If the debt was 390 billion or so in 2022, it now lurks around 440 billion and is projected to reach 460 billion in 2026/27. (I also have to check as to whether long term debt of organizations such as Ontario Hydro, around 38 billion, are part of the Provinces financial figures. Some surveys account for this, others do not)

You can make some valid arguments that Ontario's economy is larger and can well support these larger amounts of debt, and the provinces credit rating reflects this. Currently AA You can also make valid arguments that Ontario is spending large amounts of capital to make crucial infrastructure investments for the future (Yes, but no in the case of the SPA, very questionable in the case of the 401 tunnel, rather hopeless in the case of some highway investments to favour his developer legion of supporters, and I am sure there are a few others) And you can make other valid arguments that some of Ontario's costs are not of their doing, for instance extra costs related to the ill conceived Federal Immigration policy of the past few years.

The bottom line is the $ owed. The larger amounts of program $ being spent on interest payments, the larger amount of $ being pushed onto future taxpayers and their taxpaying lives.

We really morph our discussion into tax reform, well it is the season, and the reality of what it costs to live in Ontario, and the fundamental changes that could, or should, or really could ease tax burdens for lower income Ontarians and for those paying taxes long after the rest of us are riding our RIFS into the sunset (Or making substantial profits off of Donald Trump and his coterie of sleazy billionaire advisors).
 
It seems Ford is considering every highway option except for the one that would work - congestion pricing.
The province will soon be issuing a request for proposals on the tunnel — as first promised by Ford last fall, prior to the Feb. 27 provincial election — as well as “other potential infrastructure options … including elevated highways and adjacent routing” while also asking for “identification and assessment of all non-infrastructure options to maximize effectiveness of infrastructure investments (e.g. the operational and demand management strategies including peak period shoulder use, express bus service, etc.),” the report says.
He has a better chance of going with adjacent highways and elevated highways than the tunnel.
Not sure why he's so fixated on the tunnel?
Only parallel highway I can see happening that will be effective would be to extend the Gardiner expressway east kng the Rail corridor. Yes, lots of expropriation. But the cost is probably still cheaper than a tunnel the 401.

Even an adjacent highway won't fly, too many NIMBY folks will protest against it. You have residents in Toronto against the 413 even though it goes nowhere near Toronto. Maybe revisiting some of the old expressway proposals from the 1960s and 70s. I know most don't want to entertain that. But if your doing a study anyways, start from where you ended.

All the transit projects in the world won't solve the traffic congestion issues. So the reality is expanding the expressway to match the growing population is a must.

Even transit plans like the GO ALRT would be way more effective
 
Which is why the answer is to not get a job that requires such commutes. (or don't stay in one, if you had to start somewhere).
Again, not that simple.

If there are no jobs close by that meets your skills, you will have to travel to where they can be found. If your company moves, you have an option to stay with the company and doing commute depending on your position, money and how long you been with them. The other option is to look around your area or within a shorter travel time for another company.

Money plays a big part on what option you choose as well your family needs.

If there no jobs in your area that meets your skills, can you afford to take a lower paying job and will you be happy doing the work??
 
Only parallel highway I can see happening that will be effective would be to extend the Gardiner expressway east kng the Rail corridor. Yes, lots of expropriation. But the cost is probably still cheaper than a tunnel the 401.

Even an adjacent highway won't fly, too many NIMBY folks will protest against it. You have residents in Toronto against the 413 even though it goes nowhere near Toronto.
An adjacent highway won't fly because of NIMBYs, but the mother of all NIMBY victories against the Gardiner Express along the Rail corridor you can see happening!
 
An adjacent highway won't fly because of NIMBYs, but the mother of all NIMBY victories against the Gardiner Express along the Rail corridor you can see happening!
Not to give many ideas. But Doug Ford could easily sacrifice the beaches area, knowing he won't get there votes anyways. While extending the Gardiner east to Scarborough, securing the Scarborough and Durham votes.

WIth the Gardiner being uploaded, it might not be seen as just a local expressway affecting the local community , but a regional view form the GTA. Now the chance of that happening is slim, but not impossible. The bike lane legislation showed us the power the province has.

But yes, I agree NIMBY. But it's by resident who don't like Doug regardless. It's really no loss to him.
 
I am not sure why I can drive the 401 the DV, the Gardiner and not pay a toll. If I take rapid transit to travel tot he same locations, i pay a toll. The idea that cars should be able to move around without cost is a Ford family fantasy. Tolling does not have to be 407 in level of cost, but it should be slightly higher then a transit choice. (And no.... gas, insurance, maintenance, parking are not tolls. Those costs are your opportunity costs, the same cost choices made when you turned your nose up at a new Nissan Versa selling for $20,000 and chose the Ford F150 at $65,000).
Sorry, I'm not going to accept you ignoring things like gas and maintenance as "opportunity costs". By that logic, transit costs are also opportunity costs: you didn't have to take the subway to work today you know, you could've just walked. I especially take issue with calling gas an opportunity cost since it's basically a constant. It doesn't matter what car you drive, you're going to have to pay something for that hypothetical 401->DVP>Gardiner Trip. Sure depending on the car it could have different fuel efficiencies, but there will always be a cost to every trip - there's no such thing as free lunch (unless you rented a Tesla from a rental agency that doesn't charge you back for supercharger use for some reason).
 
If we see an "adjacent corridor" I think it'll more likely be the Finch Hydro corridor than some old schemes revived through Central Toronto.

The Finch Hydro Corridor could easily accomodate an 8-lane expressway from Mississauga through to Pickering with some reconfigured hydro towers. Could probably limit exits to minimize impact on adjacent areas and even cut-and-cover it in sensitive spots.
 

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