generalcanada
Senior Member
I feel safer on king than I do on front.
I know if i stay right of that white line Im good.
I know if i stay right of that white line Im good.
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nightstreak
Active Member
Weren't they supposed to have redesigned King to include permanent bump outs during the 2025-2026 King Street watermain and track replacement which has started now? Why are they still using temporary infrastructure as if it were a pilot? What has it been — 10 years?
DSCToronto
Superstar
The only part of King 'downtown' getting new watermains in 2025 is the King/Church intersection. The plan is to replace more of it after FIFA ( the King/York intersection and Bathurst to Spadina in 2026). Not sure about Spadina to Church but Church to Sumach planned for 2027 or 2028 I was told) so I suspect that any permanent bump-outs are at least 4 years away.
nightstreak
Active Member
Thanks for the details @DSCToronto.
I can't help but chuckle how an international AAA event like the World Cup, meant to be a catalyst that gets governments to work together and act quickly to deliver legacy infrastructure in time for the event, but in Toronto's case it's postponing things that were supposed to happen earlier. Reading through city documents (now outdated), the King Street public realm redesign was supposed to happen in 2026 but appears to have been delayed by FIFA. The new park at John/Richmond is being delayed and will begin construction after the World Cup. The park wouldn't have been finished in time and they need the former parking lot/picnic tables to host a FIFA event. The redevelopment of the Better Living Centre is being passed on because of the World Cup. Yeesh.
This bit from Toronto.ca shows the city's updated policy for redeveloping King. No longer a grand cohesive reimagining of a transit and pedestrian first King Street, and instead gradual piecemeal patch ups.
GameOnBrad
Active Member
As of today, I dunno how much progress has been made on the watermain other than the crews, seemingly, taking out their aggression on the road surrounding the streetcar tracks
. The current state of the King/Church intersection leaves me wondering how long the street car will be out of commission here. Like, what the...
I'm also not a fan at all of the temporary raised platforms for bike lanes, even for small stretches. It feels really awkward biking over them and the wear and tear on the platform over time doesn't help, especially with winter weather.
I've always found it weird how streetcars have been deployed in Toronto, in the center of the road. I guess it was done this way because of car parking? I've always thought streetcars should be against the sidewalk on each side of the street or both sets of tracks be on one side of the street with bike lanes and cars on the other side. Either of these options would solve bike lane issues, accessibility into and out of the streetcar, and keep everybody out of each other's way. It would also save much needed time by not needing to use, or even need, accessibility ramps being deployed if the sidewalk gradually slopes up to streetcar door level around the stops.
Ah well. It would cost way too much to change it now.
I also get lots of ideas for transit from youtube channels like "Not Just Bikes" and "City Beautiful". I love when they cover transit solutions for various cities around the world. They often cover the problems a place was faced with and how/why they did what they did, not to mention what came of it. I sometimes get those light-bulb moments where I think "Hey, I think that would work here."
T3G
Senior Member
It's not just a Toronto thing, the overwhelming majority of cities that have mixed traffic running put their tram tracks in the middle of the road, and the practice predates the widespread adoption of cars. The reason this is done is because if you put the tracks in the curb lane, their larger turning radius might not permit them to turn right without necessitating the destruction of various items on the sidewalk to build the turning track.
Concerns about using the accessibility ramp are a red herring. If they wanted to, they could raise the actual road at car stops and thus eliminate the need to deploy the ramp, like so:
TTC: Other Items (catch all)
Was nearly hit by a driver that didn't stop for a streetcar this past week on Dundas, so happy to see eventual automatic enforcement. You have to really mess up to ignore the streetcar driver signalling, honking, and the doors opening for the full length of the car.
DSCToronto
Superstar
They actually finished installing most of the new watermain on King to the east of Church but discovered 'underground conflicts' they were not aware of so are now removing all the streetcar track. I am not sure if this intersection was rebuilt 20+ years ago with the two 'foundation layers' around the tracks . If it was the work to replace only top layer is quite fast, if it needs the now standard two layers it takes a bit longer but the City are now planning to do BOTH watermain and track work together and to finish ALL of the work by mid-August (about 2 weeks sooner than originally). SEE: https://www.toronto.ca/community-pe...reet-church-street-intersection-construction/ Your photo shows they have already broken up the top layer of concrete in preparation for removing it.As of today, I dunno how much progress has been made on the watermain other than the crews, seemingly, taking out their aggression on the road surrounding the streetcar tracks
The current state of the King/Church intersection leaves me wondering how long the street car will be out of commission here. Like, what the...
View attachment 657265
drum118
Superstar
Streetcars have existed in the centre of the roads around the world from day one including Toronto and long before a car existed. Cherry St and most of Queens Quay West are a few places around the world on the side of the road and not the centre. Washington DC tracks are where you find bike lanes, but they will disappear around 2027 when the existing streetcars are scrap and replace by a tram bus as the streetcar goes from no where to no where and only sees 800,000 free riders a year.As of today, I dunno how much progress has been made on the watermain other than the crews, seemingly, taking out their aggression on the road surrounding the streetcar tracks
The current state of the King/Church intersection leaves me wondering how long the street car will be out of commission here. Like, what the...
View attachment 657265
I'm also not a fan at all of the temporary raised platforms for bike lanes, even for small stretches. It feels really awkward biking over them and the wear and tear on the platform over time doesn't help, especially with winter weather.
I've always found it weird how streetcars have been deployed in Toronto, in the center of the road. I guess it was done this way because of car parking? I've always thought streetcars should be against the sidewalk on each side of the street or both sets of tracks be on one side of the street with bike lanes and cars on the other side. Either of these options would solve bike lane issues, accessibility into and out of the streetcar, and keep everybody out of each other's way. It would also save much needed time by not needing to use, or even need, accessibility ramps being deployed if the sidewalk gradually slopes up to streetcar door level around the stops.
Ah well. It would cost way too much to change it now.
I also get lots of ideas for transit from youtube channels like "Not Just Bikes" and "City Beautiful". I love when they cover transit solutions for various cities around the world. They often cover the problems a place was faced with and how/why they did what they did, not to mention what came of it. I sometimes get those light-bulb moments where I think "Hey, I think that would work here."
As for the streetcar platforms, they are better than nothing for transit riders, but should be the same as the Roncesvalles ones. Most cycles I see using the platforms have no issues doing so, though a few will use the road if no traffic is there,
PL1
Senior Member
Unfortunately, you get the feeling that too many of the people making decisions here have either never been somewhere else, never looked at best practices in other cities, or decided "Toronto is unique; we need to reinvent things for our distinct city". It's very frustrating.
And yet, we do see improvements over time
GameOnBrad
Active Member
It's not just a Toronto thing, the overwhelming majority of cities that have mixed traffic running put their tram tracks in the middle of the road, and the practice predates the widespread adoption of cars. The reason this is done is because if you put the tracks in the curb lane, their larger turning radius might not permit them to turn right without necessitating the destruction of various items on the sidewalk to build the turning track.
Concerns about using the accessibility ramp are a red herring. If they wanted to, they could raise the actual road at car stops and thus eliminate the need to deploy the ramp, like so:
TTC: Other Items (catch all)
Was nearly hit by a driver that didn't stop for a streetcar this past week on Dundas, so happy to see eventual automatic enforcement. You have to really mess up to ignore the streetcar driver signalling, honking, and the doors opening for the full length of the car.urbantoronto.ca
Good point, I had completely overlooked turn radius.
nightstreak
Active Member
On King Street, the streetcar tracks will be up against the sidewalk, when the sidewalks are eventually widened as has always been the intention of the King Street Pilot. See GIFs below.
Since the city is relying on developers to restore the sidewalks to a new format, looking at UT's development map on King Street, the first big opportunity for this developer-led permanent King Street transitway infrastructure will be the KING condo. Once the condo is finished, (at this rate of cladding installation, in the year 2045 — poor Elton John) its sidewalk should be rebuilt to extend into the current curb lane to leave only the streetcar ROW. This will help formalize this section of King Street as a transit priority corridor and give back space to pedestrians so it doesn't feel like a windswept empty road.
Rough GIF for visualization:
Another excellent opportunity would be 460 King West at the corner of King and Spadina. Closing the curb lane would make it more obvious to westbound drivers that they can't go straight through the intersection. There's a streetcar stop in front of this development so widening the sidewalk into the curb lane will make that stop permanent without the need for the temporary lego blocks they've been using.
There are also two developments east of this intersection between Charlotte and Peter and then Ghery's Forma, all of which could formalize the curb lane as pedestrian space. The financial district between University and Yonge is largely frozen in place so the city will have to widen these sidewalks itself. The King-Yonge intersection is a clusterpluck of idiot drivers who clog up the streetcar lane every time I go through here and needs the most urgent work to get cars to turn right.
I'll end by saying that I don't have much hope that the city will get their act together and coordinate with developers. Recent developments in restaurant row (John to Peter) were finished with their sidewalks kept in the old format despite years into the King Street transitway, missing an opportunity to replace the temporary streetcar stop and restaurant patios with permanent sidewalk.
max
Active Member
My notes have the last rebuild of King & Church in 2003. This predates the first Retrac intersection at King & Dufferin in 2007. Therefore, I expect no foundation layer is present at the moment.
EDIT: Found Steve Munro put some info about the last rebuild in a recent article: https://stevemunro.ca/2025/05/05/king-church-construction-and-traffic-effects/
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PL1
Senior Member
nightstreak
Active Member
The question now is will the city take this opportunity to install permanent King Street Transitway infrastructure (sidewalk bump outs) at this intersection like they are allegedly asking developers to do? There's are stops and "temporary" jersey barriers just east and west of Church where all this work is taking place. The sidewalk here should bump out into the curb lane where the jersey barrier is.
The scope of the work:
The entire intersection needs to be rebuilt so the city is going to rebuild the sidewalks in the new format, rather than the old pre-King Street Pilot format with "temporary" jersey barriers, right... right?
