[TRONto]

I will also say that once you are more than like a block off the waterfront the impacts of the airport completely disappear.

Sure the CN tower is 1.2km from the airport - but do you even hear planes landing from there? Not really.

I bet you hear them land in Canary Wharf as it’s actually directly under the flight path though. Noise profiles are very directionally based - those jets will be passing just above those buildings in Canary Wharf, while they will be over a kilometre away from Union or the CN tower.

True considering you don't notice the airport when along Lakeshore blvd (even at Bathurst). It's just along Queen's Quay near the airport. When walking along the water at Harbourfront Centre, we look at the water and don't even remember the airport exists unless we happen to see a plane land and that's in a pointing it out to the kids 'hey cool, look at the plane' sort of way.

 

[TRONto]

4. Novelty. I know that flying from Pearson often makes more sense, but YTZ is a lark.

5. Redundancy - remember what the lack of redundancy did during COVID because of efficiency?
7. Capacity - notably during peak times.
7. Competition - pricing pressure on Pearson.
8. Economic Development - job creation, specialization, etc. Research supports multi-airport systems.

1. Convenience - when people can walk to the airport in the same time that they would reach the UPX Union gates using speedier methods, it is more convenient. I live in the core (north of our CBD) and UPX is about a 23 minute walk. To catch a 1pm train, I'd aim to leave home at 12:25 to leave room for error. That's 35 minutes. I can take the Spadina streetcar and get to YTZ in the same time. If you are at King + Bay - it's 23 minutes on TTC, Southcore it's 15 minutes, you can't beat those times. With TTC/UPX frequent delays/outages, UPX isn't as strong a case as is presented. It's easier and more reliable to get to YTZ from the Canada's economic heart than Pearson. At least with YTZ you can always get out and walk!

 

[Sqazi]

5. Redundancy - remember what the lack of redundancy did during COVID because of efficiency?
7. Capacity - notably during peak times.
7. Competition - pricing pressure on Pearson.
8. Economic Development - job creation, specialization, etc. Research supports multi-airport systems.

1. Convenience - when people can walk to the airport in the same time that they would reach the UPX Union gates using speedier methods, it is more convenient. I live in the core (north of our CBD) and UPX is about a 23 minute walk. To catch a 1pm train, I'd aim to leave home at 12:25 to leave room for error. That's 35 minutes. I can take the Spadina streetcar and get to YTZ in the same time. If you are at King + Bay - it's 23 minutes on TTC, Southcore it's 15 minutes, you can't beat those times. With TTC/UPX frequent delays/outages, UPX isn't as strong a case as is presented. It's easier and more reliable to get to YTZ from the Canada's economic heart than Pearson. At least with YTZ you can always get out and walk!

As a frequent user of both, the UP is infinitely more reliable than the Spadina streetcar. I would build a much bigger margin of error for the streetcar than the UP.

And then once you get off the streetcar, you're schlepping with luggage for 10 minutes to get get to the terminal, which is a non-starter in the winter. With the UP you're inside the terminal when you get to Pearson. They're not even comparable in terms of convenience

 

[Ward8]

Hyde Park is hardly the centre of London. The heart of the City, and the traditional business centre of London is the Bank of England, about 5 km east of Hyde Park Corner. Though the centre of modern bank towers, etc. in the City is near the Gherkin.

No, but it's closer to central London than London city airport and it's a park of cultural importance, that's why I drew the parallel. London city is much further from canary wharf than BB is from downtown and, again it's in a much more suburban location. It's in zone 3 of the tube near the end of the line. It's not using up otherwise important land.

Sure the CN tower is 1.2km from the airport - but do you even hear planes landing from there? Not really.

Noise concerns are going to be the primary issue if you live on the water or want to relax or do activity by the water. For most people the amount of prime land that is taken up by the airport is, I think, the key issue. It is a deeply inefficient use of space. It's a relatively exclusive, land intensive and highly disruptive use, in the busiest part of the city and in a culturally significant park. Billy Bishop is an extreme outlier because noone else wants to deface their city like this.

UPX isn't as strong a case as is presented. It's easier and more reliable to get to YTZ from the Canada's economic heart than Pearson. At least with YTZ you can always get out and walk!

I don't think the evidence agrees with you. The opening of the upx coincides with the pre pandemic plateau of services at ytz. It simply doesn't hold a locational advantage for most people anymore.

 

[Northern Light]

5. Redundancy - remember what the lack of redundancy did during COVID because of efficiency?
7. Capacity - notably during peak times.
7. Competition - pricing pressure on Pearson.

These 3 are better served by beefing up Hamilton to the region's secondary international airport, and ensuring that it is properly connected to rapid transit as well.

1. Convenience - when people can walk to the airport in the same time that they would reach the UPX Union gates using speedier methods, it is more convenient. I live in the core (north of our CBD) and UPX is about a 23 minute walk. To catch a 1pm train, I'd aim to leave home at 12:25 to leave room for error. That's 35 minutes. I can take the Spadina streetcar and get to YTZ in the same time. If you are at King + Bay - it's 23 minutes on TTC, Southcore it's 15 minutes, you can't beat those times. With TTC/UPX frequent delays/outages, UPX isn't as strong a case as is presented. It's easier and more reliable to get to YTZ from the Canada's economic heart than Pearson. At least with YTZ you can always get out and walk!

Convenience for a comparatively small number of people (the population within walking distance, who would employ same while hauling luggage, and who are YTZ users, I don't think outweighs the residential and tourism value of a limited or zero airport situation on the central waterfront. If you count visits to Island Park system, to Harbourfront, etc, plus immediate residents, those will be a far larger number than the former category.

* said as someone who does not live or work anywhere near YTZ

 

[crs1026]

True considering you don't notice the airport when along Lakeshore blvd (even at Bathurst). It's just along Queen's Quay near the airport. When walking along the water at Harbourfront Centre, we look at the water and don't even remember the airport exists unless we happen to see a plane land and that's in a pointing it out to the kids 'hey cool, look at the plane' sort of way.

My experience is that the engine noise while taxiing carries over the water and is at least as intrusive than engine runup during takeoff or landing. Taxiing can last for 5 minutes or more whereas takeoff is momentary.
I look at how far that runway extension reaches and wonder if those using the new Ontario Place spa will enjoy the interruptions to their peaceful respite.

- Paul

 

[just east of the creek]

One thing these conversations speak to is the lack of higher level rapid transit connectivity of any Toronto or area airport. Pearson lacks, BB lacks, Hamilton lacks. And where the connections do exist, it is limited. Bus, or in the case of Pearson an overcrowded limited, commuter train heading for downtown Toronto. That Pearson Transit node is sorely needed, to tie into Via, GO, and one day perhaps, fingers crossed…..ALTO,

You cannot think about jets at BB and not also think subway, light rail, dedicated and separated streetcar tracks

You fly into any London airport and there are major transportation options at the terminal - Docklands Railway, the Elizabeth line etc etc. Same with Schipol in Holland etc.

Spend the $ at Pearson.

 

[picard102]

My experience is that the engine noise while taxiing carries over the water and is at least as intrusive than engine runup during takeoff or landing. Taxiing can last for 5 minutes or more whereas takeoff is momentary.
I look at how far that runway extension reaches and wonder if those using the new Ontario Place spa will enjoy the interruptions to their peaceful respite.

- Paul

The children screaming at the "spa" will be louder than the planes.

 

[Sqazi]

The children screaming at the "spa" will be louder than the planes.

Is it a spa or a waterpark?

 

[TRONto]

One thing these conversations speak to is the lack of higher level rapid transit connectivity of any Toronto or area airport. Pearson lacks, BB lacks, Hamilton lacks. And where the connections do exist, it is limited. Bus, or in the case of Pearson an overcrowded limited, commuter train heading for downtown Toronto. That Pearson Transit node is sorely needed, to tie into Via, GO, and one day perhaps, fingers crossed…..ALTO,

You cannot think about jets at BB and not also think subway, light rail, dedicated and separated streetcar tracks

You fly into any London airport and there are major transportation options at the terminal - Docklands Railway, the Elizabeth line etc etc. Same with Schipol in Holland etc.

Spend the $ at Pearson.

GTAA has been sitting on it's hands since the last plan. It will not surprise me if we have to wait 2 decades see Line 5, Line 6, etc connected to the airport.

 

[TRONto]

Is it a spa or a waterpark?

It's both.

My experience is that the engine noise while taxiing carries over the water and is at least as intrusive than engine runup during takeoff or landing. Taxiing can last for 5 minutes or more whereas takeoff is momentary.
I look at how far that runway extension reaches and wonder if those using the new Ontario Place spa will enjoy the interruptions to their peaceful respite.

- Paul

Agreed. I have only found the taxiing to be annoying when in the area. While at Ireland Park, the take offs and landings were alright,

I don't think the evidence agrees with you. The opening of the upx coincides with the pre pandemic plateau of services at ytz. It simply doesn't hold a locational advantage for most people anymore.

Doesn't look like that to me.
UPX Opening in 2015, YTZ ridership:
2015 - 2,503,118
2017 - 2,803,156
2018 - 2,807,208 All-time peak ridership
2019 - 2,774,000
2024 - ~2.2 million - which isn't bad considering the drop in flying to the US

These 3 are better served by beefing up Hamilton to the region's secondary international airport, and ensuring that it is properly connected to rapid transit as well.

Convenience for a comparatively small number of people (the population within walking distance, who would employ same while hauling luggage, and who are YTZ users, I don't think outweighs the residential and tourism value of a limited or zero airport situation on the central waterfront. If you count visits to Island Park system, to Harbourfront, etc, plus immediate residents, those will be a far larger number than the former category.

No one from the CBD or current YTZ passengers would go to Hamilton. Much too inconvenient. Although Canada should probably beef up Hamilton anyway.

45% of passengers use a car/taxi to get to the airport which means that 55% of 2.2 million is hauling luggage (for 2024).

There is also the direct 2000 operational jobs related to the airport.

"In 2024, Toronto’s ferry service carried more than 1.4 million passengers. In 2023, that number was approximately 1.5 million passengers." It is estimated that including private taxis you have 2 million passengers to the islands. It is estimated that about 750K of that is tourists.

As stated, I don't feel Harbourfront is negatively impacted by the airport. The planes don't impact our experience there. As far as noise, that affects only those closest to the airport. I visited my friend often who lived in the condo right across from Norway park and his balcony faced the airport and it never impacted us and the only discussion about the airport was convenient it was.

While I do love the islands, the value of the islands is being hugely overstated in this thread. Most people don't know Hanlon's or Ward exist and tourists generally go to Centre Island/Centreville - estimated 1.5 million visits annually out of an estimated 2 million visits to the island. I didn't realize that visits are that slanted towards Centreville - 75% (official info says up to 80%)!!!! The argument is actually Centreville vs an expanded airport! Do we all think an expanded airport makes the Centreville experience worse?

I am actually quite surprised as the more research I do, the stronger the case for an expanded airport. For me, the answer gets even clearer: Islands + expanded airport provides the strongest benefits for Toronto.

 

[picard102]

Is it a spa or a waterpark?

They may have a few spa like amenities, but the largest portion of it is an indoor waterpark for families.

 

[afransen]

There is also the direct 2000 operational jobs related to the airport.

Are these jobs that would not exist if these flights occurred at another airport?

 

[Sqazi]

They may have a few spa like amenities, but the largest portion of it is an indoor waterpark for families.

So the people outdoors on the beaches and amenity areas would still be subjected to regular airplane noise I would assume, from right across the water. Which takes away from how much of a destination this place will be once it's developed.

 

[Ward8]

Doesn't look like that to me.
UPX Opening in 2015, YTZ ridership:
2015 - 2,503,118
2017 - 2,803,156
2018 - 2,807,208 All-time peak ridership
2019 - 2,774,000
2024 - ~2.2 million - which isn't bad considering the drop in flying to the US

To know if there was a plateau, one would have to see the trajectory before the upx. The graph below is pulled from Wikipedia.

Is the plateau entirely attributable to the train? Probably not, but I'd argue it's a factor. Anecdotally, it's changed my own travel pattern and some of the people I know.