[dowlingm]

Nobody in Hamilton cares about cross-border passenger rail service, especially not in the current political climate.

I don’t know what this assertion is supposed to be arise from - are you aware of past market research? Hamilton has grown significantly in the last 10 years as housing pressures have pushed people further out. Surely it would get the sort of patronage the likes of Grimsby or St Catharines does, or better.

That said, the routing through Hamilton point is fair - it may constrain VIA routes more than is reasonable for efficient passage to/through Aldershot

 

[Urban Sky]

I don’t know what this assertion is supposed to be arise from - are you aware of past market research? Hamilton has grown significantly in the last 10 years as housing pressures have pushed people further out. Surely it would get the sort of patronage the likes of Grimsby or St Catharines does, or better.

Number of VIA passengers boarding and deboarding in 2018:
GRIMSBY: 297 (0.4 per departure)
ST CATHERINES: 2825 (3.9 per departure)

That said, the routing through Hamilton point is fair - it may constrain VIA routes more than is reasonable for efficient passage to/through Aldershot

Thank you for acknowledging!

 

[reaperexpress]

Whereas it indeed makes sense for some Toronto-based tourists to take the Maple Leaf for trips to Niagara Falls, the only utility it would provide for Hamiltonians to use it is to travel across the border, which minimizes the number of passengers which could possibly benefit from adding a stop in Hamilton.

The same is true with Aldershot. So that has no influence on whether trains should stop at Aldershot or West Harbour.

I'm reminded that VIA has no station staff at the Aldershot station...

So that eliminates a potential advantage that Aldershot could have over West Harbour.

Again, I can't think of any reason why Hamiltonians would use VIA rather than GO to get to Niagara Falls.

Whether or people are going to Niagara Falls or New York makes no difference. Either way their ride is 13 minutes longer from Aldershot than it would be from West Harbour. The only reason this would be relevant to the decision between Aldershot and West Harbour would be if a lot of people are riding the Maple Leaf from Union to Aldershot, which is definitely not the case.

 

[Urban Sky]

The same is true with Aldershot. So that has no influence on whether trains should stop at Aldershot or West Harbour.

It absolutely does influence the decision whether to keep the Status Quo or change it, as the less passengers would benefit from the stop in Hamilton, the harder it gets to justify incurring any costs and expending any effort on it. If it was just about stopping at a platform the train has to pass through anyways (as is the case in Aldershot), this would be a no-brainer. Sadly, it does involve negotiationd with CN and Metrolinx, as well as potentially painful trade-offs and this is where I don‘t think it would (or should!) be anywhere near the top of the mind of anyone st VIA…

So that eliminates a potential advantage that Aldershot could have over West Harbour.

Correct, but the Status Quo is always the default.

Whether or people are going to Niagara Falls or New York makes no difference. Either way their ride is 13 minutes longer from Aldershot than it would be from West Harbour. The only reason this would be relevant to the decision between Aldershot and West Harbour would be if a lot of people are riding the Maple Leaf from Union to Aldershot, which is definitely not the case.

You would be introducing a source of additional delays to an already unreliable train and thus inconvenience everyone on board or boarding later down the railroad for a rather marginal benefit to a number of passengers you can probably count on your two hands and which accounts for a tiny fraction of the passengers affected.

I have already conceded that it is inevitable that all trains to Niagara Falls stop at Hamilton in the long run (e.g., once GO establishes frequent service to Confederation). Can we just settle for that this should and will happen sooner rather than later, just not at this point…?

 

[nfitz]

Here is my VIA timetable archive. Please let me know which trains operated directly from Montreal to Aldershot prior to January 2000, so that I can correct the searchable database I maintain…

Interesting ... I must be getting the trips mixed up in my mind. Perhaps I changed in Union and forgot. Weren't there on-board announcements at times that one could stay on the train if one was transferring to X?

 

[reaperexpress]

It absolutely does influence the decision whether to keep the Status Quo or change it, as the less passengers would benefit from the stop in Hamilton, the harder it gets to justify incurring any costs and expending any effort on it. If it was just about stopping at a platform the train has to pass through anyways (as is the case in Aldershot), this would be a no-brainer. Sadly, it does involve negotiationd with CN and Metrolinx, as well as potentially painful trade-offs and this is where I don‘t think it would (or should!) be anywhere near the top of the mind of anyone st VIA…

Correct, but the Status Quo is always the default.

Well my question wasn't really "is this the most important issue for Via right now" it was just "would it be a good idea". I'm certainly not going to be pestering Via to demand that the stop be moved, I'm just discussing the idea on an internet forum out of interest.

You would be introducing a source of additional delays to an already unreliable train and thus inconvenience everyone on board or boarding later down the railroad for a rather marginal benefit to a number of passengers you can probably count on your two hands and which accounts for a tiny fraction of the passengers affected.

I have already conceded that it is inevitable that all trains to Niagara Falls stop at Hamilton in the long run (e.g., once GO establishes frequent service to Confederation). Can we just settle for that this should and will happen sooner rather than later, just not at this point…?

I'm not convinced that stopping at West Harbour instead of Aldershot would cause any increase to the travel time. The speed limit through Aldershot is 80 mph (129 km/h) while the speed limit past West Harbour is only 30 mph (48 km/h). So skipping Aldershot would save more time than skipping West Harbour currently does.

Accessing the platforms at West Harbour does require Via to specifically be on the south track, which could potentially increase conflicts with CN. But many of the CN trains would want to be on the north side in Hamilton anyway (since that's where the yard is and most of the industrial leads) and Via would want to be on the south track anyway (Grimsby station is on the south side) so I doubt it makes much difference to conflicts, if any.

When GO added West Harbour to the off-peak Niagara trains a few weeks ago, they added 2 minutes to the schedule, which is the usual cost of adding a stop along an existing line. There was no additional time added due to potential CN conflicts.

 

[crs1026]

It seems odd from a branding and networking perspective that a city the size of Hamilton would not have a high profile VIA station in the downtown. But when the actual service delivered is only a single ghost train that doesn’t feed people into the VIA corridor system, it’s probably better to stay low key and avoid customer disappointment. Certainly putting VIA at West Harbour will not help Hamiltonians feel connected to the grid. That’s a whole lot different than in post CN days when there were three daily trains to Toronto, all with good connections to Kingston Ottawa and Montreal trains.
If it were my system, there would be 4 or 5 through trains between Hamilton and points east, GO notwithstanding….but that seems unlikely with VIA. An unfortunate “Bridge too far”.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

An unfortunate “Bridge too far”.

Or perhaps a bridge too late.

 

[Bordercollie]

It seems odd from a branding and networking perspective that a city the size of Hamilton would not have a high profile VIA station in the downtown. But when the actual service delivered is only a single ghost train that doesn’t feed people into the VIA corridor system, it’s probably better to stay low key and avoid customer disappointment. Certainly putting VIA at West Harbour will not help Hamiltonians feel connected to the grid. That’s a whole lot different than in post CN days when there were three daily trains to Toronto, all with good connections to Kingston Ottawa and Montreal trains.
If it were my system, there would be 4 or 5 through trains between Hamilton and points east, GO notwithstanding….but that seems unlikely with VIA. An unfortunate “Bridge too far”.

- Paul

The downtown station is on the CP line which has a tunnel with limited capacity. That's why you cant run trains to hunter station other than what they have now.

 

[nfitz]

The downtown station is on the CP line which has a tunnel with limited capacity. That's why you cant run trains to hunter station other than what they have now.

West Harbour is downtown for any reasonable purpose. And has better parking.

It is the same location as VIA's (CN's) downtown station that VIA used to use for it's Niagara Falls and Welland services. Okay, one block west for the station building, the platforms literally overlap where they used to be.

 

[ownthesky]

West Harbour is downtown for any reasonable purpose. And has better parking.

It is the same location as VIA's (CN's) downtown station that VIA used to use for it's Niagara Falls and Welland services. Okay, one block west for the station building, the the platforms literally overlap where they used to be.

To add, the North end has a ton of development potential. It's easy to point at the current city and say the Hunter St station is the true downtown, but we don't know what the future will hold for Hamilton's future development. The Pier 8 developments or Jamesville North of the station may be currently caught in development hell, but if they were already built, we would have a very different view of West Harbour. Barton St essentially spills out onto West Harbour's doorstep and it's miles and miles of wasted potential for dense construction and higher order transit.

 

[dowlingm]

Number of VIA passengers boarding and deboarding in 2018:
GRIMSBY: 297 (0.4 per departure)
ST CATHERINES: 2825 (3.9 per departure)

That is… not a lot. Why does VIA bother stopping in Grimsby, other than political optics of a station closure?

 

[north-of-anything]

That is… not a lot. Why does VIA bother stopping in Grimsby, other than political optics of a station closure?

Because part of Via's mandate is serving communities that would otherwise be unserved by rail transit if it was up to private operators. Or that would be my justification, at least. I'd fully expect it to change, albeit with protests, once GO has regular service stopping in Grimsby from both directions.

 

[dowlingm]

Because part of Via's mandate is serving communities that would otherwise be unserved by rail transit if it was up to private operators. Or that would be my justification, at least. I'd fully expect it to change, albeit with protests, once GO has regular service stopping in Grimsby from both directions.

I think a description of Grimsby transit service being comparable to say the White River route in respect of retention of VIA service in 2025, even without a Grimsby GO station in place is... inapt.

 

[lenaitch]

Because part of Via's mandate is serving communities that would otherwise be unserved by rail transit if it was up to private operators. Or that would be my justification, at least. I'd fully expect it to change, albeit with protests, once GO has regular service stopping in Grimsby from both directions.

i doubt you will find those words anywhere in VIA's mandate. Its mandate is whatever Cabinet says it is, and there are a whole lot of rail-served communities that lack passenger service, They do provide services to remote communities that lack any other kind of of connection with the rest of the country. I see now on their website they are calling these "scenic adventure routes".