[robmausser]

We need to blow up these legacy organizations and strip CN their legacy legal rights from a century ago.

AoD

CN was a crown corp until the 1980s, so quite the opposite happened.

Now they are one of the largest companies in Canada. Stopping them will be a very impossible task.

Also remember that Canada ships way more freight by railcar than places like Europe. As progressive and future thinking we consider Europe for their passenger rail service, they ship way more freight by trucks on roads, which is less quick and less efficient and more costly than raill, and way worse environmentally.

The government needs to build our own passenger rail lines where possible (Alto, buying up GEXR and branch line to Windsor, Missing Link project) and leave the usage of CN and CPs mainline rail lines to freight imo. Its a losing battle.

 

[dowlingm]

the choice in the 90s wasn’t one privatized (class I) and one not. The avoidable choice was selling the freight business and infrastructure as a single entity, rather than separate the Infrastructure Manager, which could then choose to assign operating rights, or lease parts of it (the BC Rail model)

There is little point in hoping for the current or alternative governments to make great strides in rail acquisition when they have made it clear that investment is a thing pension funds are intended to do rather than the treasury directly, and thus even straightforward capacity improvements like doubling Fallowfield-Federal-Ottawa are in abeyance.

 

[Trackside_Treasure]

I also would like to point out that VIA should have known this was going to be an issue if you look at CN's handling of Amtrak.
Since down south they also require 32 axle counts so why would it be any different?
This will also mean that the Northlander sets will be subject to the same speed restrictions.

This CN-Amtrak history doesn't account for the intervening 15 years...

The year 1993 is where the loss-of-shunt investigations were started, but they really didn't pick up any co-ordinated effort until a Detroit-Chicago Amtrak train operating on CN tracks in Michigan's Canton-Township hit a vehicle and killed the five occupants on July 9, 2009. There had been several documented reports of activation failures at this one crossing with no apparent equipment malfunction found. The US Federal Regulator found CN at fault, which was the start of mandated minimum-axle counts, and CN was directed to lead an industry-wide task force to find mitigations for the loss of shunt issue.

So it would seem these shortcomings were noted in 2009 and in 2021 when the first Ventures arrives, and 2022-2024 when the Ventures entered service across the Corridor on CN tracks but only in October 2024 when the Ventures began Southwest Ontario operations in earnest did CN start to restrict VIA.

Certainly, the communications between CN and VIA leading the crossing speed reductions CN imposed were (as-presented by both sides) vague and not exhaustive.

 

[lenaitch]

This will also mean that the Northlander sets will be subject to the same speed restrictions.

It was explained either upthread or in a different thread that the problem only applies to 'predictive' crossing signal technology, which is apparently not installed on the CN Bala or Newmarket subdivisions.

 

[Trackside_Treasure]

It was explained either upthread or in a different thread that the problem only applies to 'predictive' crossing signal technology, which is apparently not installed on the CN Bala or Newmarket subdivisions.

Apparently CN listed some New Market [sic] Sub crossings in the Crossing Supplement in case of detours.

 

[smallspy]

It was explained either upthread or in a different thread that the problem only applies to 'predictive' crossing signal technology, which is apparently not installed on the CN Bala or Newmarket subdivisions.

Apparently CN listed some New Market [sic] Sub crossings in the Crossing Supplement in case of detours.View attachment 657425

As I wrote above and Eric correctly points out, there are a handful on the Newmarket Sub.

But the time loss of slowing from 60mph or 50mph down to 45 and then back up is far less than the time loss of slowing down from 95mph and then regaining that speed. Thus the amount of time lost by the Northlander sets will likely be in the single-digit minutes.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

As I wrote above and Eric correctly points out, there are a handful on the Newmarket Sub.

But the time loss of slowing from 60mph or 50mph down to 45 and then back up is far less than the time loss of slowing down from 95mph and then regaining that speed. Thus the amount of time lost by the Northlander sets will likely be in the single-digit minutes.

Dan

Funny how this comment triggered a rabbit hole excursion.... I had never really thought through the math.

If a train is travelling at 95 mph....a correctly functioning predictor circuit providing 22 seconds of crossing protection will activate the lights and bells when the train is 3065 feet from the crossing.

At 60 mph, the crossing protection will activate when the train is 1936 feet from the crossing.

At 45 mph, the protection will activate when the train is 1452 feet from the crossing.

At 95 mph, assuming perfect sightlines and visibility, the train may be say 2500 feet away before the crew is certain that the protection has failed and the train needs to stop and protect. A venture train will likely not stop from 95 mph, even with an emergency brake application, in that distance (I won't guess at the actual braking statistic). Hence the requirement to be down to 45 mph before the protection activates. At 95 moh, given curvature and real life conditions, the crew will likely not be able to confirm protection is working in time to stop safely if it isn't.

The theoretical penalty zone from 60 to 45 is shorter by about 1000 feet versus 95 and the deceleration zone to get there is likely much shorter. I doubt that a venture set could go from 60 to 45 in 484 feet, so the 60 mph venture will still need to begin braking before it hits the 60 mph trigger point, and that moves the effective trigger point towards the 45 mph trigger point. So there is still some time and mental effort consumed before the crew sees everything is ok.

That's the limit of my math skill, but there it is.

- Paul

 

[smallspy]

Funny how this comment triggered a rabbit hole excursion.... I had never really thought through the math.

If a train is travelling at 95 mph....a correctly functioning predictor circuit providing 22 seconds of crossing protection will activate the lights and bells when the train is 3065 feet from the crossing.

At 60 mph, the crossing protection will activate when the train is 1936 feet from the crossing.

At 45 mph, the protection will activate when the train is 1452 feet from the crossing.

At 95 mph, assuming perfect sightlines and visibility, the train may be say 2500 feet away before the crew is certain that the protection has failed and the train needs to stop and protect. A venture train will likely not stop from 95 mph, even with an emergency brake application, in that distance (I won't guess at the actual braking statistic). Hence the requirement to be down to 45 mph before the protection activates. At 95 moh, given curvature and real life conditions, the crew will likely not be able to confirm protection is working in time to stop safely if it isn't.

The theoretical penalty zone from 60 to 45 is shorter by about 1000 feet versus 95 and the deceleration zone to get there is likely much shorter. I doubt that a venture set could go from 60 to 45 in 484 feet, so the 60 mph venture will still need to begin braking before it hits the 60 mph trigger point, and that moves the effective trigger point towards the 45 mph trigger point. So there is still some time and mental effort consumed before the crew sees everything is ok.

That's the limit of my math skill, but there it is.

- Paul

Just to muddy the waters even more.....

With a predictor level crossing circuit, the equipment will detect and calculate the speed of the train something like 3500 feet out from the crossing.

So in the case of the Siemens sets, it detects it at its higher speed, and if working correctly activates as if the train was traveling at that speed all the way to the crossing.

But because the train slows down to about 45mph, the gates and lights are activated for considerably longer than would otherwise be the case.

Dan

 

[crs1026]

And just to muddy the waters further again…. I have never heard of a crossing circuit that activates and then gives up without performing its full cycle. So once something, anything, triggers the gates and they start to come down, they provide the required 22 seconds of protection before they open up…. Even if the trigger stimulus was false and only momentary.
Which ought to imply that once a crew sees the gates operating, they ought to be allowed to throttle up immediately and return to full speed. The requirement to come all the way to 45 and hold it to the crossing notwithstanding a correct activation of the protection seems doubly restrictive and unnecessary….. but I’m not a signals engineeer.

- Paul

 

[Trackside_Treasure]

CN only put a “time” restriction on VIA, ensuring the gates are horizontal from 20-25 seconds. VIA took it a step further and said “do 45 at the whistle post”. But now VIA doesn’t want to loosen that. There are often times when the crossing can be seen working from a mile away, so to follow CN’s instructions a train would barely have to drop its speed. It’s VIA that put the crippling blow of reducing to 45 regardless of knowing the crossing is working as intended. Very counterintuitive. Something about a couple of VIA guys playing at the simulator!

 

[crs1026]

CN only put a “time” restriction on VIA, ensuring the gates are horizontal from 20-25 seconds. VIA took it a step further and said “do 45 at the whistle post”. But now VIA doesn’t want to loosen that. There are often times when the crossing can be seen working from a mile away, so to follow CN’s instructions a train would barely have to drop its speed. It’s VIA that put the crippling blow of reducing to 45 regardless of knowing the crossing is working as intended. Very counterintuitive. Something about a couple of VIA guys playing at the simulator!

Possibly (again, beyond my math) there is a scenario where the gates activate, but having already slowed to 45 the train is now more than 22 seconds away from the crossing.. so if the detection fails, the gates will cycle off befor the train hits the crossing.
Just a theory.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

Now that the Hamilton West Harbour eastbound exit track is operational, has VIA provided any indication that they might now stop there on the joint service with Amtrak? Or does that introduce too many operational complications?

 

[Urban Sky]

Now that the Hamilton West Harbour eastbound exit track is operational, has VIA provided any indication that they might now stop there on the joint service with Amtrak? Or does that introduce too many operational complications?

Given that the existing stop in Aldershot is so close, and the train only matters for cross-border travel, I struggle to see the utility of adding a stop in Hamilton…

 

[nfitz]

Given that the existing stop in Aldershot is so close, and the train only matters for cross-border travel, I struggle to dee the utility of adding a stop in Hamilton…

You could use that argument to stop VIA trains in St. Lambert rather than Central (which are even closer together than Hamilton and Aldershot. Which would save considerable time on the Ottawa to Quebec City train.

Hamilton is a no-brainer based on the urban fabric. Whether they keep Aldershot or not, I don't know.

The issue on that 14-hour train trip to New York City isn't whether they stop for a few minutes in Hamilton!

 

[Bordercollie]

You could use that argument to stop VIA trains in St. Lambert rather than Central (which are even closer together than Hamilton and Aldershot. Which would save considerable time on the Ottawa to Quebec City train.

Hamilton is a no-brainer based on the urban fabric. Whether they keep Aldershot or not, I don't know.

The issue on that 14-hour train trip to New York City isn't whether they stop for a few minutes in Hamilton!

London bound trains would stop at Aldershot. Niagara bound trains would stop at both. Is that so hard? What's an additional 5 minutes?