[T3G]

A similar solution to transit is the increasing trend just to make local travel free.

That feels like a more long term solution, though certainly one I would welcome.

In the shorter term it would be nice if the politicians did their job and gave the TTC the money they need, and if the police did their job and solved crimes. I know, dream on...

 

[turbanplanner]

You said iron clad. To get 100% fare compliance it would have to be highly policed. Iron clad makes me cross.

Absolutely not comparable. For internet, the connection profiles make stealing the service almost impossible. And pre-pay and pay-at-the-pump makes it very difficult to steal gas (these days).

Neither were iron clad back in the day, with cars driving away from pumps and massive theft of cable TV in some areas.

I'll tell you a story. Back when I was in university residence there was so much illicit Cable TV with poor-quality wiring, that one nearby resident complained to Rogers about their poor signal. Turns out that they weren't actually connected to the cable, but were getting the leaking signals from across the road, over-the-air.

A similar solution to transit is the increasing trend just to make local travel free.

Something I see nobody bring up about free transit is that the most expensive way to move a passenger is the local portion (bus service)

Any money you'd save from enforcement, fare gates etc, you're going to blow past that with the necessary service increases

That feels like a more long term solution, though certainly one I would welcome.

In the shorter term it would be nice if the politicians did their job and gave the TTC the money they need, and if the police did their job and solved crimes. I know, dream on...

The TTC has so many management problems that money wouldn't fix, I'm not saying more budget and fixing the SOGR backlog would do nothing but even things like on time metrics are setup in the worst way.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

You can have the POP system. Just enforce it.

Actually have the children use a PRESTO card. Once they start school, they should be issued a PRESTO card for free. With their date of birth recorded. When the child is under 12, it would register as a "free" child fare. Once they become 12, they have to get their parent or guardian to deposit a balance for student fares. Once they become an adult, they pay adult fare.

How to use the transit system could be taught in Grade one, seven, and twelve.

Tourists would use cash or credit cards.

 

[T3G]

How to use the transit system could be taught in Grade one, seven, and twelve.

What about using the transit system is so complicated it needs to be taught in schools?

The TTC has so many management problems that money wouldn't fix, I'm not saying more budget and fixing the SOGR backlog would do nothing but even things like on time metrics are setup in the worst way.

TTC management sucks, but it must be said that even if they were good at their job they would be fighting a losing battle. SOGR and operational expenses are not sexy so the system suffers while shiny new equipment gets delivered. Restoring the provincial operating subsidy would be job #1...

 

[gabe]

I just want the TTC to have iron clad fare enforcement. Do that and you automatically increase the sense of safety and order for the paying passengers. I expect a good portion of the muttering, shouting, flaying, sleeping, stabbing, pushing and incinerating among us have not paid their fare. Stop them at the gate, NOT on the system. When I was a young adult in the 1980s you had to board at the front, and the driver ensured you'd paid. I well recall drivers in the 1980s stopping the bus until someone who hadn't paid, did so or got off. My grandad was a London bus driver and even as a young lad I remember him and the fare collector taking no sh#t from the drunks or vagrants who shirked their fares - mind, Grandad was a combat vet, as were many.

The POP system and all doors boarding on the streetcars (and often buses) has sped up boarding, but it came at the same time as the polite, law-abiding society that was Canada was changing to the meaner, take what you can society, beset with addiction and mental illness issues that we have today. Imagine if Loblaws had a POP system - take the food you want, and there's a 0-1% chance anyone will challenge you at the door - the place would be empty in a day. To my mind, the fare collection has two jobs - one to fund the system, the other to keep out those who will not pay. That's why I love taking my family to the Toronto Islands - you know that everyone you see enjoying the day paid to get onto that ferry, which automatically filters out the junkies and insane that make us feel unsafe - instead the islands are like a city park from the 1970s or 80s, with families have fun, letting their guard down.

TTC, enforce the fares so that none shall pass. That's what it will take to return a sense of safety to your paying customers.

I think the POP system will only work in places like Japan, where etiquette is taught in schools at a young age. Japan's subway system is heaven! No crazy people on the trains, no one is eating on the trains, and making any noise while on the train is considered rude. They don't even talk to others nor do they talk on the phone. Passengers have headphones on, and everyone looks at their phones. I've even seen video footage of broken fare gates, and the Japanese folks will still line up and scan their subway app/card even though they could walk in for free! The Japanese and their culture are truly on another level compared us.

Every time i'm on the TTC i'm either stuck with some crazy person, or someone ignorent fool having a loud speaker phone conversation, or eating stinky slop out of a take-out container. Common social etiquette has gone out the window here.

 

[81-717]

no one is eating on the trains

I see nothing wrong with this, as long as you don't make a mess and/or leave garbage, and as long as it's not a full on meal (because who'd wanna eat a full meal on the bus/train anyway? not the most comfortable environment for that), but something light and on-the go like a coffee and donut, or granola bar, etc. It can go wonders in making your commute more enjoyable, especially when the subway is extremely boring otherwise.

 

[bearcat]

I think the POP system will only work in places like Japan, where etiquette is taught in schools at a young age. Japan's subway system is heaven! No crazy people on the trains, no one is eating on the trains, and making any noise while on the train is considered rude. They don't even talk to others nor do they talk on the phone. Passengers have headphones on, and everyone looks at their phones. I've even seen video footage of broken fare gates, and the Japanese folks will still line up and scan their subway app/card even though they could walk in for free! The Japanese and their culture are truly on another level compared us.

Every time i'm on the TTC i'm either stuck with some crazy person, or someone ignorent fool having a loud speaker phone conversation, or eating stinky slop out of a take-out container. Common social etiquette has gone out the window here.

Well at least in my experience travelling in Japan (mostly in Tokyo) in urban areas all rail system have fare gates, including to leave the station. You actually can't leave without having valid fare. It's not POP at all. It's actually MORE controlled access compared to the TTC.

I am not saying you're wrong about Japanese culture, or that POP won't work in Japan, but there must be reasons it's not implemented widely.

 

[Mihairokov]

I've even seen video footage of broken fare gates, and the Japanese folks will still line up and scan their subway app/card even though they could walk in for free!

People do this here as well.

Just don't ask if you'll ever be welcomed cohesively into Japanese society because unless you're Japanese the answer to that question is probably going to be "no". There are pros and cons to any society.

 

[turbanplanner]

People do this here as well.

Just don't ask if you'll ever be welcomed cohesively into Japanese society because unless you're Japanese the answer to that question is probably going to be "no". There are pros and cons to any society.

I absolutely love Japan and the kindness and order that is instilled into most people.

Though I think there is more to it, like someone mentioned how you can't just leave if you barged in on a broken gate, they take cleaning a lot more seriously.
I counted SEVEN cleaners for a station that gets about 1500 people a day. I doubt the TTC has even that many cleaners on shift at a time for the whole system, and once I got to a remote beach there was garbage everywhere :/

 

[Admiral Beez]

I see nothing wrong with this, as long as you don't make a mess and/or leave garbage, and as long as it's not a full on meal.....

Hopefully this is when you realize you were the problem all along.

 

[Undead]

People do this here as well.

Just don't ask if you'll ever be welcomed cohesively into Japanese society because unless you're Japanese the answer to that question is probably going to be "no". There are pros and cons to any society.

Yeah will till people here find out what that kind of society does to individuality, requirements of personal discipline and the attendant mental health/personal struggles.

Always eager to see the pros and blind to the cons aka the grass is greener on the other side.

 

[T3G]

Hopefully this is when you realize you were the problem all along.

I mean, the comment referred to light snacks like donuts and granola bars.

Not sure why I should have a problem with this. It's not like it endorsed eating full size pizzas or poutines on transit.

 

[Coolibop]

Well at least in my experience travelling in Japan (mostly in Tokyo) in urban areas all rail system have fare gates, including to leave the station. You actually can't leave without having valid fare. It's not POP at all. It's actually MORE controlled access compared to the TTC.

Japanese transit is also hodge podge of public and private companies and spaces. Could explain the fare gates everywhere....

 

[nfitz]

Wouldn't that make the TTC a rolling encampment, mental asylum and injection site where no sane, sober person would want to venture unless they had no choice? Everyone with means would just drive their cars, take their bicycle or walk. We need to work within the boundaries of the increasingly broken society Toronto has become - and offering free TTC access to its worst will just deter everyone else.

I suspect few are dumb or self-centred enough to be taking the subway downtown during daytime, given how inconvenient driving is from outside of downtown, and how phenomenally and increasingly expensive parking is.

Here's NYC's subway where fare and bylaw enforcement is ignored. Until we solve the triple crises of homelessness, mental illness and addiction, if we make the TTC free this is what we'll get.

People living in subway tunnels is a very different issue - and has been going on for a century or so in New York City.

Personally I've never observed anything like that in New York City.

I think you significantly overstate the issue.

Hopefully this is when you realize you were the problem all along.

Given there's no rules about eating food on the TTC, I don't see how one would be the issue.

 

[APTA-2048]

I think you significantly overstate the issue.

People make out the subway to be this kind hellscape where you’re gonna get killed as soon as you swipe your card. I went last year and most of the system was fine. Violent individuals exist, but they exist outside of the subway too.

Not to mention some of the things people seem to have a problem with aren’t even dangerous. A homeless person sleeping on a train or a person with a lot of belonging minding their own business are a minimal threat. A completely “normal” looking person could actually be someone with a violent temper and you wouldn’t know either.