[T3G]

What reasonable alternatives exist to the POP system? Taking into account both the insane dwell times (ever tried riding a rush hour bus in the suburbs? You can easily lose a minute or two at every major stop with all the lemmings filing in by the front door only as is!), and the fact that the TTC operator workforce is made up of a significant chunk of people who have no business trying to take on asocial low lives, because that is a fight they will lose, I see no realistic, workable alternative to having spot checks done by people whose job it is to do them, and presumably accept the risk of doing so when they take the job.

Can you imagine how much slower a bus ride will be if the driver starts policing every person that gets on the bus? At that point, you might as well walk.

 

[Northern Light]

Your going to get a lot of sensitive push back on this. But I completely agree with you.
We need harsher laws to back up operators , and punishment to deter others from playing around on the system.

This is a bad take.

Assault is already a crime.

People convicted of it, particularly the more serious versions (Assault Causing Bodily Harm and Aggravated Assault) are not 'caught and released'

Yes, people do get out on bail pending trial, generally speaking, as they should. Punishment follows conviction, not allegation.

Holding people without bail, should be, a last resort, based either on flight risk (won't show up for the trial) or clear evidence that the person is a present, on-going, and serious risk to the community.

In 2020, the most recent year for which I can find data, there were nearly 15,000 people in remand custody (pre-trial) in Ontario, on any given day. This compares to ~3,000 in the 1990s.

So we're holding a huge number of people who haven't been convicted yet.

What if they are found not guilty? A trial can easily be an 18 month (or longer) wait. Imagine having your life upended for something you didn't do? Also, spending longer in remand than you might actually receive as a sentence upon conviction.

I'm no bleeding heart. Lets protect society and punish criminal offenders. But lets be sane about it. That means applying incarceration primarily to those convicted of an offense, and generally reserving that penalty for those who are actually dangerous and/or commit the most serious offenses.

There are a host of other punishments we could choose to use (some allowed in law now, others would require amendments to same).

We can apply financial penalties, we can remove someone's right to drive, we can suspend their passport, we can order community service, we can require compulsory treatment of addictions/mental illness, we can impose curfews and apply ankle bracelets to enforce them etc etc.

5 year jail sentences are the maximum for common assault, by the way.

The Supreme Court of Canada has already thrown out most mandatory minimums because they omit any judicial discretion to consider the specifics of a crime.

It doesn't have to be a police state, because everytime you arrest someone , they'll be in jail.

Actually that is the definition of a police state. Its also a violation of international law and unconstitutional.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What reasonable alternatives exist to the POP system?

You can have the POP system. Just enforce it.

 

[nfitz]

I'm not sure I'd call making sure people pay for the services they use as highly policed.

You said iron clad. To get 100% fare compliance it would have to be highly policed. Iron clad makes me cross.

Is my home internet service or gas for my car highly policed because I must pay to get it?

Absolutely not comparable. For internet, the connection profiles make stealing the service almost impossible. And pre-pay and pay-at-the-pump makes it very difficult to steal gas (these days).

Neither were iron clad back in the day, with cars driving away from pumps and massive theft of cable TV in some areas.

I'll tell you a story. Back when I was in university residence there was so much illicit Cable TV with poor-quality wiring, that one nearby resident complained to Rogers about their poor signal. Turns out that they weren't actually connected to the cable, but were getting the leaking signals from across the road, over-the-air.

A similar solution to transit is the increasing trend just to make local travel free.

 

[Admiral Beez]

A similar solution to transit is the increasing trend just to make local travel free.

Wouldn't that make the TTC a rolling encampment, mental asylum and injection site where no sane, sober person would want to venture unless they had no choice? Everyone with means would just drive their cars, take their bicycle or walk. We need to work within the boundaries of the increasingly broken society Toronto has become - and offering free TTC access to its worst will just deter everyone else.

Here's NYC's subway where fare and bylaw enforcement is ignored. Until we solve the triple crises of homelessness, mental illness and addiction, if we make the TTC free this is what we'll get.

 

[T3G]

A similar solution to transit is the increasing trend just to make local travel free.

That feels like a more long term solution, though certainly one I would welcome.

In the shorter term it would be nice if the politicians did their job and gave the TTC the money they need, and if the police did their job and solved crimes. I know, dream on...

 

[turbanplanner]

You said iron clad. To get 100% fare compliance it would have to be highly policed. Iron clad makes me cross.

Absolutely not comparable. For internet, the connection profiles make stealing the service almost impossible. And pre-pay and pay-at-the-pump makes it very difficult to steal gas (these days).

Neither were iron clad back in the day, with cars driving away from pumps and massive theft of cable TV in some areas.

I'll tell you a story. Back when I was in university residence there was so much illicit Cable TV with poor-quality wiring, that one nearby resident complained to Rogers about their poor signal. Turns out that they weren't actually connected to the cable, but were getting the leaking signals from across the road, over-the-air.

A similar solution to transit is the increasing trend just to make local travel free.

Something I see nobody bring up about free transit is that the most expensive way to move a passenger is the local portion (bus service)

Any money you'd save from enforcement, fare gates etc, you're going to blow past that with the necessary service increases

That feels like a more long term solution, though certainly one I would welcome.

In the shorter term it would be nice if the politicians did their job and gave the TTC the money they need, and if the police did their job and solved crimes. I know, dream on...

The TTC has so many management problems that money wouldn't fix, I'm not saying more budget and fixing the SOGR backlog would do nothing but even things like on time metrics are setup in the worst way.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

You can have the POP system. Just enforce it.

Actually have the children use a PRESTO card. Once they start school, they should be issued a PRESTO card for free. With their date of birth recorded. When the child is under 12, it would register as a "free" child fare. Once they become 12, they have to get their parent or guardian to deposit a balance for student fares. Once they become an adult, they pay adult fare.

How to use the transit system could be taught in Grade one, seven, and twelve.

Tourists would use cash or credit cards.

 

[T3G]

How to use the transit system could be taught in Grade one, seven, and twelve.

What about using the transit system is so complicated it needs to be taught in schools?

The TTC has so many management problems that money wouldn't fix, I'm not saying more budget and fixing the SOGR backlog would do nothing but even things like on time metrics are setup in the worst way.

TTC management sucks, but it must be said that even if they were good at their job they would be fighting a losing battle. SOGR and operational expenses are not sexy so the system suffers while shiny new equipment gets delivered. Restoring the provincial operating subsidy would be job #1...

 

[gabe]

I just want the TTC to have iron clad fare enforcement. Do that and you automatically increase the sense of safety and order for the paying passengers. I expect a good portion of the muttering, shouting, flaying, sleeping, stabbing, pushing and incinerating among us have not paid their fare. Stop them at the gate, NOT on the system. When I was a young adult in the 1980s you had to board at the front, and the driver ensured you'd paid. I well recall drivers in the 1980s stopping the bus until someone who hadn't paid, did so or got off. My grandad was a London bus driver and even as a young lad I remember him and the fare collector taking no sh#t from the drunks or vagrants who shirked their fares - mind, Grandad was a combat vet, as were many.

The POP system and all doors boarding on the streetcars (and often buses) has sped up boarding, but it came at the same time as the polite, law-abiding society that was Canada was changing to the meaner, take what you can society, beset with addiction and mental illness issues that we have today. Imagine if Loblaws had a POP system - take the food you want, and there's a 0-1% chance anyone will challenge you at the door - the place would be empty in a day. To my mind, the fare collection has two jobs - one to fund the system, the other to keep out those who will not pay. That's why I love taking my family to the Toronto Islands - you know that everyone you see enjoying the day paid to get onto that ferry, which automatically filters out the junkies and insane that make us feel unsafe - instead the islands are like a city park from the 1970s or 80s, with families have fun, letting their guard down.

TTC, enforce the fares so that none shall pass. That's what it will take to return a sense of safety to your paying customers.

I think the POP system will only work in places like Japan, where etiquette is taught in schools at a young age. Japan's subway system is heaven! No crazy people on the trains, no one is eating on the trains, and making any noise while on the train is considered rude. They don't even talk to others nor do they talk on the phone. Passengers have headphones on, and everyone looks at their phones. I've even seen video footage of broken fare gates, and the Japanese folks will still line up and scan their subway app/card even though they could walk in for free! The Japanese and their culture are truly on another level compared us.

Every time i'm on the TTC i'm either stuck with some crazy person, or someone ignorent fool having a loud speaker phone conversation, or eating stinky slop out of a take-out container. Common social etiquette has gone out the window here.

 

[81-717]

no one is eating on the trains

I see nothing wrong with this, as long as you don't make a mess and/or leave garbage, and as long as it's not a full on meal (because who'd wanna eat a full meal on the bus/train anyway? not the most comfortable environment for that), but something light and on-the go like a coffee and donut, or granola bar, etc. It can go wonders in making your commute more enjoyable, especially when the subway is extremely boring otherwise.

 

[bearcat]

I think the POP system will only work in places like Japan, where etiquette is taught in schools at a young age. Japan's subway system is heaven! No crazy people on the trains, no one is eating on the trains, and making any noise while on the train is considered rude. They don't even talk to others nor do they talk on the phone. Passengers have headphones on, and everyone looks at their phones. I've even seen video footage of broken fare gates, and the Japanese folks will still line up and scan their subway app/card even though they could walk in for free! The Japanese and their culture are truly on another level compared us.

Every time i'm on the TTC i'm either stuck with some crazy person, or someone ignorent fool having a loud speaker phone conversation, or eating stinky slop out of a take-out container. Common social etiquette has gone out the window here.

Well at least in my experience travelling in Japan (mostly in Tokyo) in urban areas all rail system have fare gates, including to leave the station. You actually can't leave without having valid fare. It's not POP at all. It's actually MORE controlled access compared to the TTC.

I am not saying you're wrong about Japanese culture, or that POP won't work in Japan, but there must be reasons it's not implemented widely.

 

[Mihairokov]

I've even seen video footage of broken fare gates, and the Japanese folks will still line up and scan their subway app/card even though they could walk in for free!

People do this here as well.

Just don't ask if you'll ever be welcomed cohesively into Japanese society because unless you're Japanese the answer to that question is probably going to be "no". There are pros and cons to any society.

 

[turbanplanner]

People do this here as well.

Just don't ask if you'll ever be welcomed cohesively into Japanese society because unless you're Japanese the answer to that question is probably going to be "no". There are pros and cons to any society.

I absolutely love Japan and the kindness and order that is instilled into most people.

Though I think there is more to it, like someone mentioned how you can't just leave if you barged in on a broken gate, they take cleaning a lot more seriously.
I counted SEVEN cleaners for a station that gets about 1500 people a day. I doubt the TTC has even that many cleaners on shift at a time for the whole system, and once I got to a remote beach there was garbage everywhere :/

 

[Admiral Beez]

I see nothing wrong with this, as long as you don't make a mess and/or leave garbage, and as long as it's not a full on meal.....

Hopefully this is when you realize you were the problem all along.