[Northern Light]

If the contact hasn't been signed or completed, then it's not a binding contract.
Plus the ppl making the announcement is not the same as the people signing the paper work. Plus both sides would have to agree, which they haven't.
Based on what you said , technically TTC has an agreement with the 4 short listed manufacturers already.

I'll go with Steve Munro on this and what was already discussed at the TTC Board meeting , which again contradicts your above statements.

Thanks for the laugh.

I have no idea what has possessed you to be exceedingly rude.

I didn't insult you in any way.

I have a long standing track record here.

Is it possible I'm wrong? Sure. It happens. But not often. I dislike being wrong, and put a great deal of thought into my posts.

You see a lot of what I know here, but a lot less than everything that I know.

If that's insufficient for you, so be it. You're welcome to a different take.

No derision is required.

 

[RapidTransit]

I have no idea what has possessed you to be exceedingly rude.

I didn't insult you in any way.

I have a long standing track record here.

Is it possible I'm wrong? Sure. It happens. But not often. I dislike being wrong, and put a great deal of thought into my posts.

You see a lot of what I know here, but a lot less than everything that I know.

If that's insufficient for you, so be it. You're welcome to a different take.

No derision is required.

I just broke down how I didn't think it was a contract based on what I've seen from Steve munro to the TTC board. I certainly don't have the inside info that you have.

I was actually hoping to be corrected. I didn't think I was being exceedingly rude to you.

 

[evandyk]

In law, by the way, an oral contract is legally binding. (assuming you can prove it.............a room full of invited cameras and microphones helps)

An oral contract can be binding, but only if both parties agreed to all the terms. In a complex agreement with many terms being discussed/negotiated, it's almost impossible to prove that all have been landed unless you have a single signed document containing all of them.

 

[Northern Light]

I just broke down how I didn't think it was a contract based on what I've seen from Steve munro to the TTC board. I certainly don't have the inside info that you have.

I was actually hoping to be corrected. I didn't think I was being exceedingly rude to you.

"Thanks for the Laugh" was the rude bit. It implies my post was a joke, lacking seriousness or credibility.

 

[RapidTransit]

"Thanks for the Laugh" was the rude bit. It implies my post was a joke, lacking seriousness or credibility.

I genuinely there might have been sarcasm in what you wrote. So just to save face, I made those comments.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Of course this isn't new. It's been that way for decades - but with TTC stopping enforcement, it's gotten worse.

I just want the TTC to have iron clad fare enforcement. Do that and you automatically increase the sense of safety and order for the paying passengers. I expect a good portion of the muttering, shouting, flaying, sleeping, stabbing, pushing and incinerating among us have not paid their fare. Stop them at the gate, NOT on the system. When I was a young adult in the 1980s you had to board at the front, and the driver ensured you'd paid. I well recall drivers in the 1980s stopping the bus until someone who hadn't paid, did so or got off. My grandad was a London bus driver and even as a young lad I remember him and the fare collector taking no sh#t from the drunks or vagrants who shirked their fares - mind, Grandad was a combat vet, as were many.

The POP system and all doors boarding on the streetcars (and often buses) has sped up boarding, but it came at the same time as the polite, law-abiding society that was Canada was changing to the meaner, take what you can society, beset with addiction and mental illness issues that we have today. Imagine if Loblaws had a POP system - take the food you want, and there's a 0-1% chance anyone will challenge you at the door - the place would be empty in a day. To my mind, the fare collection has two jobs - one to fund the system, the other to keep out those who will not pay. That's why I love taking my family to the Toronto Islands - you know that everyone you see enjoying the day paid to get onto that ferry, which automatically filters out the junkies and insane that make us feel unsafe - instead the islands are like a city park from the 1970s or 80s, with families have fun, letting their guard down.

TTC, enforce the fares so that none shall pass. That's what it will take to return a sense of safety to your paying customers.

 

[nfitz]

I just want the TTC to have iron clad fare enforcement. Do that and you automatically increase the sense of safety and order for the paying passengers.

Indeed - most people do feel safer in a highly policed state.

 

[Mihairokov]

Why even have public transit at all? It seems like it's being abused by people beneath me.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Indeed - most people do feel safer in a highly policed state.

I'm not sure I'd call making sure people pay for the services they use as highly policed. Is my home internet service or gas for my car highly policed because I must pay to get it? Are the Toronto Islands highly policed? Of course not, and it's not necessary because the disruptive elements will not pay to get onto the ferry. If you have effective fare collection you don't need a highly policed state as it concerns the TTC - as those who need policing are not on the TTC. But I admit I loved my time in Singapore, they know how to run a county/city there. I remember I was a Fort Siloso and my ticket receipt blew out of my hand. Well, didn't I race after it as I was not going to be responsible for the one piece of litter in the entire park.

Why even have public transit at all? It seems like it's being abused by people beneath me.

We could make it entirely public transit, with no fare collection at all. We'd save on fare collectors and enforcement costs. It's been done elsewhere, https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/free-transit-orangeville-1.7378695. In Toronto's case we'd see the system quickly turn into something from Deathwish, but it would be public transit for all.

 

[RapidTransit]

I just want the TTC to have iron clad fare enforcement. Do that and you automatically increase the sense of safety and order for the paying passengers. I expect a good portion of the muttering, shouting, flaying, sleeping, stabbing, pushing and incinerating among us have not paid their fare. Stop them at the gate, NOT on the system. When I was a young adult in the 1980s you had to board at the front, and the driver ensured you'd paid. I well recall drivers in the 1980s stopping the bus until someone who hadn't paid, did so or got off. My grandad was a London bus driver and even as a young lad I remember him and the fare collector taking no sh#t from the drunks or vagrants who shirked their fares - mind, Grandad was a combat vet, as were many.

The POP system and all doors boarding on the streetcars (and often buses) has sped up boarding, but it came at the same time as the polite, law-abiding society that was Canada was changing to the meaner, take what you can society, beset with addiction and mental illness issues that we have today. Imagine if Loblaws had a POP system - take the food you want, and there's a 0-1% chance anyone will challenge you at the door - the place would be empty in a day. To my mind, the fare collection has two jobs - one to fund the system, the other to keep out those who will not pay. That's why I love taking my family to the Toronto Islands - you know that everyone you see enjoying the day paid to get onto that ferry, which automatically filters out the junkies and insane that make us feel unsafe - instead the islands are like a city park from the 1970s or 80s, with families have fun, letting their guard down.

TTC, enforce the fares so that none shall pass. That's what it will take to return a sense of safety to your paying customers.

Your going to get a lot of sensitive push back on this. But I completely agree with you.
We need harsher laws to back up operators , and punishment to deter others from playing around on the system.

The point you make about the Toronto island is spot on. And the way you grew up on TTC is the same way I remember TTC. People know they can get away with being a disturbance in TTC , and even have supports even in UT that will have a bleeding heart for ppl that have no intentions of changing their criminal behavior.

We need a federal laws in place to protect law abiding citizens on the system. Assaulting a TTC operator or any transit employee should be automatic 5 years. Not this catch and release nonsense.

It doesn't have to be a police state, because everytime you arrest someone , they'll be in jail.

 

[T3G]

What reasonable alternatives exist to the POP system? Taking into account both the insane dwell times (ever tried riding a rush hour bus in the suburbs? You can easily lose a minute or two at every major stop with all the lemmings filing in by the front door only as is!), and the fact that the TTC operator workforce is made up of a significant chunk of people who have no business trying to take on asocial low lives, because that is a fight they will lose, I see no realistic, workable alternative to having spot checks done by people whose job it is to do them, and presumably accept the risk of doing so when they take the job.

Can you imagine how much slower a bus ride will be if the driver starts policing every person that gets on the bus? At that point, you might as well walk.

 

[Northern Light]

Your going to get a lot of sensitive push back on this. But I completely agree with you.
We need harsher laws to back up operators , and punishment to deter others from playing around on the system.

This is a bad take.

Assault is already a crime.

People convicted of it, particularly the more serious versions (Assault Causing Bodily Harm and Aggravated Assault) are not 'caught and released'

Yes, people do get out on bail pending trial, generally speaking, as they should. Punishment follows conviction, not allegation.

Holding people without bail, should be, a last resort, based either on flight risk (won't show up for the trial) or clear evidence that the person is a present, on-going, and serious risk to the community.

In 2020, the most recent year for which I can find data, there were nearly 15,000 people in remand custody (pre-trial) in Ontario, on any given day. This compares to ~3,000 in the 1990s.

So we're holding a huge number of people who haven't been convicted yet.

What if they are found not guilty? A trial can easily be an 18 month (or longer) wait. Imagine having your life upended for something you didn't do? Also, spending longer in remand than you might actually receive as a sentence upon conviction.

I'm no bleeding heart. Lets protect society and punish criminal offenders. But lets be sane about it. That means applying incarceration primarily to those convicted of an offense, and generally reserving that penalty for those who are actually dangerous and/or commit the most serious offenses.

There are a host of other punishments we could choose to use (some allowed in law now, others would require amendments to same).

We can apply financial penalties, we can remove someone's right to drive, we can suspend their passport, we can order community service, we can require compulsory treatment of addictions/mental illness, we can impose curfews and apply ankle bracelets to enforce them etc etc.

5 year jail sentences are the maximum for common assault, by the way.

The Supreme Court of Canada has already thrown out most mandatory minimums because they omit any judicial discretion to consider the specifics of a crime.

It doesn't have to be a police state, because everytime you arrest someone , they'll be in jail.

Actually that is the definition of a police state. Its also a violation of international law and unconstitutional.

 

[Admiral Beez]

What reasonable alternatives exist to the POP system?

You can have the POP system. Just enforce it.

 

[nfitz]

I'm not sure I'd call making sure people pay for the services they use as highly policed.

You said iron clad. To get 100% fare compliance it would have to be highly policed. Iron clad makes me cross.

Is my home internet service or gas for my car highly policed because I must pay to get it?

Absolutely not comparable. For internet, the connection profiles make stealing the service almost impossible. And pre-pay and pay-at-the-pump makes it very difficult to steal gas (these days).

Neither were iron clad back in the day, with cars driving away from pumps and massive theft of cable TV in some areas.

I'll tell you a story. Back when I was in university residence there was so much illicit Cable TV with poor-quality wiring, that one nearby resident complained to Rogers about their poor signal. Turns out that they weren't actually connected to the cable, but were getting the leaking signals from across the road, over-the-air.

A similar solution to transit is the increasing trend just to make local travel free.

 

[Admiral Beez]

A similar solution to transit is the increasing trend just to make local travel free.

Wouldn't that make the TTC a rolling encampment, mental asylum and injection site where no sane, sober person would want to venture unless they had no choice? Everyone with means would just drive their cars, take their bicycle or walk. We need to work within the boundaries of the increasingly broken society Toronto has become - and offering free TTC access to its worst will just deter everyone else.

Here's NYC's subway where fare and bylaw enforcement is ignored. Until we solve the triple crises of homelessness, mental illness and addiction, if we make the TTC free this is what we'll get.