[turbanplanner]

I guess about 40% is the new 50%.

If you do an average per rider over the day, that's going to vanish, given the very low ridership at that time. It's certainly not the low-hanging fruit!

And quite frankly, that stat looked odd when I saw it published. I do ride the streetcar at such times. And I see/hear lots of tapping when I pay attention.

What do you observe when you ride the streetcar at those times?

If we’re nitpicking single digit percentage points…

My experience was about 40 percent of people don’t tap on, but I ride the 509 and there isn’t really any traffic to connect from, so there is a good chance they didn’t pay at all.

If it was somewhere like Chinatown you could assume they had been on the 505 etc and already paid but just not tapped on again.

Looking at the crash gates the evasion rate is close to half again. It seems lack of supervision is the issue. I think even having inspectors one day a week would be a huge deterrent to gambling evasion

 

[PL1]

If we’re nitpicking single digit percentage points…

My experience was about 40 percent of people don’t tap on, but I ride the 509 and there isn’t really any traffic to connect from, so there is a good chance they didn’t pay at all.

If it was somewhere like Chinatown you could assume they had been on the 505 etc and already paid but just not tapped on again.

Looking at the crash gates the evasion rate is close to half again. It seems lack of supervision is the issue. I think even having inspectors one day a week would be a huge deterrent to gambling evasion

View attachment 582954

Is that a TTC source! Or someone watching?

 

[nfitz]

Looking at the crash gates the evasion rate is close to half again. It seems lack of supervision is the issue. I think even having inspectors one day a week would be a huge deterrent to gambling evasion

View attachment 582954

If you look at those entering from the bus bay, then it's 100% fare evasion.

I think that all this tells you, that if you are going to evade fares, it's the crash gates you are likely to do it. The total station fare evasion rate is only 6.3%.

The big issue here isn't unattended entrances - it's that regular staff and operators are going to do nothing about this - rarely perhaps making a sarcastic comment. This isn't true on other systems.

Tossing turns of enforcement onto the system isn't the answer (though more does seem necessary on streetcars). Changing the employee descriptions and responsibilities would do a lot.

 

[T3G]

The big issue here isn't unattended entrances - it's that regular staff and operators are going to do nothing about this - rarely perhaps making a sarcastic comment. This isn't true on other systems.

Tossing turns of enforcement onto the system isn't the answer (though more does seem necessary on streetcars). Changing the employee descriptions and responsibilities would do a lot.

The reason why staff do it on other systems is probably because there are less people using transit out in the sticks, so the chances of running into someone who will shank you for speaking up about the fare is much less of a risk. Lots of the vile characters in the region are concentrated in Toronto, and they use transit. I doubt very much the same is true, in, say, York Region (have you seen those appalling frequencies?! The drugdealers and gangbangers of York Region don't have time to wait around for YRT!) Personally, I think the officious TTC operators who speak up and intervene now are fools for putting themselves in harm's way.

 

[nfitz]

The reason why staff do it on other systems is probably because there are less people using transit out in the sticks, so the chances of running into someone who will shank you for speaking up about the fare is much less of a risk. Lots of the vile characters in the region are concentrated in Toronto, and they use transit

I'm not sure I see the difference between a crush-loaded YRT bus in Scarborough, to a crush-loaded TTC bus in Scarborough.

 

[T3G]

I'm not sure I see the difference between a crush-loaded YRT bus in Scarborough, to a crush-loaded TTC bus in Scarborough.

The difference is that most YRT buses are near empty outside of rush hour, while TTC buses are pretty packed almost all the time. There is no TTC route that has hourly waits, but YRT has enough.

I don't see why we should expect regular employees to do anything. It's funny how all the greedy corporations have somehow learned not to expect their employees to put themselves in danger to protect the financial interests of the company, to not lift a finger to stop shoplifters stealing thousands of dollars of merchandise, but a public sector employee should put himself at great personal risk... over $3.35!!!! What do you expect them to do, anyway? What recourse do they have besides making the sarcastic comments you allude to? If I was on a crushloaded bus, and the driver held us up, or took us out of service because one person didn't pay, I'd think that driver is an idiot. As for when they see people walking in through the wrong entrances at a station, are they supposed to tackle the fare evader or something?

 

[Steve X]

They should have officers going around to conduct POP checks randomly. Oh wait, people will cry racist and they are being singled out. Nevermind.

Why don't they station plains cloth officers at bus terminals with high fare evasion to arrest and ticket them? Even if they don't pay the fines, having them handcuffed for half an hour while everyone watches is enough to shame them.

 

[PL1]

They should have officers going around to conduct POP checks randomly. Oh wait, people will cry racist and they are being singled out. Nevermind.

Why don't they station plains cloth officers at bus terminals with high fare evasion to arrest and ticket them? Even if they don't pay the fines, having them handcuffed for half an hour while everyone watches is enough to shame them.

C'mon! Because that won't be instituted fairly! Arguably this is why we (on a forum) are not setting policy

 

[A_Faulty5]

The abandoned H4s from Wilson are not parked at Greenwood, and were carted off to scrap in November 2012. The H4s which are parked at Greenwood are either awaiting conversion to work cars, or serving as parts donors for work cars.

I was told by someone who works for the TTC that the H4s there were apart of the 5599-5598 married pair and that it was broken up and one of them moved to greenwood. The trains had too many parts stolen to be converted to work cars as seen in flickr images of it.

https://flic.kr/p/amq9GW

I do not think that shoving one subway car out of the way, parked under the wide open sky, and that would create extra work to extricate, would make for a compelling example of preservation.

Until we get Obico yard/More funding, wouldn't that have to do in terms of at least keeping the trains until we get more room? Would like to hear your thoughts!

 

[T3G]

I was told by someone who works for the TTC that the H4s there were apart of the 5599-5598 married pair and that it was broken up and one of them moved to greenwood. The trains had too many parts stolen to be converted to work cars as seen in flickr images of it.

https://flic.kr/p/amq9GW

Until we get Obico yard/More funding, wouldn't that have to do in terms of at least keeping the trains until we get more room? Would like to hear your thoughts!

I don't know if one of them ended up surviving. If they did, it would be the first I've heard of it, and I certainly can't imagine what the point would have been of keeping only one, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

I think that this is a discuss we are having too late. There are no subway cars left to save except for the T1s, and considering how the feds are dragging their knuckles on providing money for replacement, I don't expect them to be gone any time soon. If it was an interim thing until a solution could be devised, I could see it, but interim solutions in this city have a bad habit of becoming permanent, and I'm not entirely certain that opening Obico would actually change anything - there would still be no way to credibly display a train to the public.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I don't see why we should expect regular employees to do anything.

As a teen in the 1980s taking first Mississauga Transit and then TTC the bus drivers were always enforcing fare payment, and it never occurred to me not to pay. Eventually the cash box had a sensor and if you didn’t pay, the driver would challenge you. But those were the 1980s when IMO, Canadians were just a different sort. Not ethnically, but culturally, we had a greater respect for rules and authority. We also had far less tolerance for vagrancy, public nuisance, public intoxication and drug use, and antisocial behaviour like fare evasion. We seem to have fallen into an angry, me-first dystopian Canada, where junked-up crazies are ignored as they evade TTC fares, squat in our parks, etc. The place has gone to heck.

 

[T3G]

We also have a far bigger diversity of people doing the job now. It's all well and good to take chances with confronting asocial behaviour if you are built like a mountain, but if you happen to be smaller in stature, or elderly, it is foolish to gamble your safety like that. Keep your head down, mind your own business, and if you see something untoward, call transit control and let them deal with it, instead of playing the hero. It rarely goes the way it does in movies, and there are no prizes for stopping a fare evader.

 

[nfitz]

As a teen in the 1980s taking first Mississauga Transit and then TTC the bus drivers were always enforcing fare payment, and it never occurred to me not to pay. Eventually the cash box had a sensor and if you didn’t pay, the driver would challenge you. But those were the 1980s when IMO, Canadians were just a different sort. Not ethnically, but culturally, we had a greater respect for rules and authority. We also had far less tolerance for vagrancy, public nuisance, public intoxication and drug use, and fare evasion. We seem to have fallen into an angry, me-first dystopian Canada, where junked-up crazies are ignored as they evade TTC fares, squat in our parks, etc. The place has gone to heck.

I totally disagree. When you go out to places that still do enforce the fare, like York, you see the same surprising obedience as you used to see anywhere it was enforced. The major change as far as I can see, is the overly cautious safety culture that has overwhelmed many organizations. Remember when they took down the walk left, stand right signs - so that they wouldn't be endorsing the unsafe act of walking up an escalator?

I agree it's not a diversity issue - if anything the opposite, given that the homeless and addicts I encounter on the system are significantly more white (the same as me) than the general population.

 

[turbanplanner]

I totally disagree. When you go out to places that still do enforce the fare, like York, you see the same surprising obedience as you used to see anywhere it was enforced. The major change as far as I can see, is the overly cautious safety culture that has overwhelmed many places. Remember when they took down the walk left, stand right signs - so that they wouldn't be endorsing the unsafe act of walking up an escalator?

I agree it's not a diversity issue - if anything the opposite, given that the homeless and addicts I encounter on the system are significantly more white (the same as me) than the general population.

Maybe I’m out of touch on this but the few times I’ve taken YRT I noticed the bus was a lot emptier even leaving from a subway station and the passengers were classier (kept to themselves, no music)

Feel like enforcing rules is easier when you have less problematic people? My partner and I always look at the viva stations along highway 7 and try to see if anyone is even there

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

I totally disagree. When you go out to places that still do enforce the fare, like York, you see the same surprising obedience as you used to see anywhere it was enforced. The major change as far as I can see, is the overly cautious safety culture that has overwhelmed many places. Remember when they took down the walk left, stand right signs - so that they wouldn't be endorsing the unsafe act of walking up an escalator?

I agree it's not a diversity issue - if anything the opposite, given that the homeless and addicts I encounter on the system are significantly more white (the same as me) than the general population.

It's a form of broken window theory - no visible sign of rule enforcement signal to would-be-violators that misbehaviour is perfectly acceptable.

Maybe I’m out of touch on this but the few times I’ve taken YRT I noticed the bus was a lot emptier even leaving from a subway station and the passengers were classier (kept to themselves, no music)

Feel like enforcing rules is easier when you have less problematic people? My partner and I always look at the viva stations along highway 7 and try to see if anyone is even there

It's the burbs afterall - though the then inner city issues are starting to percolate to the 905.

AoD