[evandyk]

There needs to be a clear direction to enforce; but we do need to change the system to reduce the liklihood of confrontations, while deterring repeat offenders.

This is where moving to a system with a caution/warning on a first offense, provided you cooperate and supply ID etc is good move.......then a modest ticket in line with a typical parking ticket, ~$40 or such.

I think this is the best approach. If you really think you're at risk of getting a ticket, even a $40 one, it's a real incentive to swipe your card. If you really don't think you'll get caught, even a potential $450 ticket isn't going to motivate you. Getting your fare checked twice a week will motivate you in a way that knowing there's a theoretical huge penalty doesn't.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Except that if you don't have fare inspectors, you'd be moving to the majority of the riders not paying. The problem here is the ineffectiveness, not the presence of a fare enforcement system.

If we made the TTC free, so no collectors or inspectors, how much would the taxpayer have to make up? Of course we'd need to ensure the entire thing didn't become one big encampment.

 

[turbanplanner]

If we made the TTC free, so no collectors or inspectors, how much would the taxpayer have to make up? Of course we'd need to ensure the entire thing didn't become one big encampment.

This is ironically by far the most expensive option. The ridership recovery is 87% for local and 97% for express routes (pre covid)

Free trips would likely significantly add riders to the most expensive method to run (per passenger) if it was people will for sure run more errands, and potentially you'll have people getting on to go like 5 stops to save a walk. The TTC is already the biggest budget item and I see it going up a decent chunk if it was free.

I think that's very true, but if the non-payment rate is 30%, that must include a large number of people just choosing not to pay because they don't think they'll get caught, and you can probably whittle that group down fairly efficiently.

Remember when the police camped out with the inspectors? Suddenly a bunch of people with arrest warrants were caught! Not all fare evaders are criminals but I'm fairly certain serious criminals are very unlikely to pay. You fix evasion and safety goes up dramatically!

 

[evandyk]

Yeah, I'd rather not ride the TTC if it's crawling with cops.

 

[turbanplanner]

Yeah, I'd rather not ride the TTC if it's crawling with cops.

Good point I feel safer with stabby crack heads

 

[Admiral Beez]

Yeah, I'd rather not ride the TTC if it's crawling with cops.

I want to be with the people who are not avoiding cops.

 

[Undead]

I generally feel safe on the TTC. But I would still like to see an officer patrolling every now and then.

 

[Northern Light]

If we made the TTC free, so no collectors or inspectors, how much would the taxpayer have to make up?

TTC Passenger Revenue (fares) is ~1B per year.

Savings from shutting down the entire Fare Enforcement program, depends on what you count beyond the direct payroll, but somewhere between 15-25M per year.

Getting rid of 'collectors' meaning station staff is a non-starter, they already changing names/job description to customer service agent, but whatever you call them, people don't want un-staffed stations.

So net, you're still pretty close to 1B.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I generally feel safe on the TTC. But I would still like to see an officer patrolling every now and then.

Me too. As long as they’re not as useless as this officer.

 

[T3G]

I would be pretty careful with calls to expand police presence on the TTC. Without any kind of nuance or restraint you'll get situations like this in New York, where their useless governor straight up said that she does not care about statistics and all that matters is that people have the illusion of safety.

New York is expanding bag checks on the subway. How is this legal?

Officials have deployed thousands of armed police and national guard troops into the system. Critics fear a new era of profiling

www.theguardian.com

“Rattling off statistics saying things are getting better doesn’t make you feel better, especially when you’ve just heard about someone being slashed in the throat or thrown on the subway tracks,” Hochul said in a press conference. “There’s a psychological impact. People worry they could be next. Anxiety takes hold.”

In other words, exaggerated emotions in the wake of an incident is a sound basis on which to develop public policy. With governance like this, who needs enemies? People on this continent are always willing to trade away their freedoms for the illusion of security. And personally, as a rail fan, I do not particularly relish the idea of having more interfering officials to bother me every time I take a picture of something.

 

[turbanplanner]

I would be pretty careful with calls to expand police presence on the TTC. Without any kind of nuance or restraint you'll get situations like this in New York, where their useless governor straight up said that she does not care about statistics and all that matters is that people have the illusion of safety.

New York is expanding bag checks on the subway. How is this legal?

Officials have deployed thousands of armed police and national guard troops into the system. Critics fear a new era of profiling

www.theguardian.com

In other words, exaggerated emotions in the wake of an incident is a sound basis on which to develop public policy. With governance like this, who needs enemies? People on this continent are always willing to trade away their freedoms for the illusion of security. And personally, as a rail fan, I do not particularly relish the idea of having more interfering officials to bother me every time I take a picture of something.

TPS had a huge success in apprehending criminals with outstanding arrest warrants around the time the added extra police during the nyc incident.


and since nfitz doubts every thing I say, here’s proof the streetcar fare evasion is nearly 50% at times

 

[nfitz]

and since nfitz doubts every thing I say, here’s proof the streetcar fare evasion is nearly 50% at times

I guess about 40% is the new 50%.

If you do an average per rider over the day, that's going to vanish, given the very low ridership at that time. It's certainly not the low-hanging fruit!

And quite frankly, that stat looked odd when I saw it published. I do ride the streetcar at such times. And I see/hear lots of tapping when I pay attention.

What do you observe when you ride the streetcar at those times?

 

[turbanplanner]

I guess about 40% is the new 50%.

If you do an average per rider over the day, that's going to vanish, given the very low ridership at that time. It's certainly not the low-hanging fruit!

And quite frankly, that stat looked odd when I saw it published. I do ride the streetcar at such times. And I see/hear lots of tapping when I pay attention.

What do you observe when you ride the streetcar at those times?

If we’re nitpicking single digit percentage points…

My experience was about 40 percent of people don’t tap on, but I ride the 509 and there isn’t really any traffic to connect from, so there is a good chance they didn’t pay at all.

If it was somewhere like Chinatown you could assume they had been on the 505 etc and already paid but just not tapped on again.

Looking at the crash gates the evasion rate is close to half again. It seems lack of supervision is the issue. I think even having inspectors one day a week would be a huge deterrent to gambling evasion

 

[PL1]

If we’re nitpicking single digit percentage points…

My experience was about 40 percent of people don’t tap on, but I ride the 509 and there isn’t really any traffic to connect from, so there is a good chance they didn’t pay at all.

If it was somewhere like Chinatown you could assume they had been on the 505 etc and already paid but just not tapped on again.

Looking at the crash gates the evasion rate is close to half again. It seems lack of supervision is the issue. I think even having inspectors one day a week would be a huge deterrent to gambling evasion

View attachment 582954

Is that a TTC source! Or someone watching?

 

[nfitz]

Looking at the crash gates the evasion rate is close to half again. It seems lack of supervision is the issue. I think even having inspectors one day a week would be a huge deterrent to gambling evasion

View attachment 582954

If you look at those entering from the bus bay, then it's 100% fare evasion.

I think that all this tells you, that if you are going to evade fares, it's the crash gates you are likely to do it. The total station fare evasion rate is only 6.3%.

The big issue here isn't unattended entrances - it's that regular staff and operators are going to do nothing about this - rarely perhaps making a sarcastic comment. This isn't true on other systems.

Tossing turns of enforcement onto the system isn't the answer (though more does seem necessary on streetcars). Changing the employee descriptions and responsibilities would do a lot.