[generalcanada]

No, the testing lasted so long because testing found all sorts of issues with the signalling system that needed to get resolved before moving on.

This kind of thing is precisely applicable to the Ontario Line.

Dan

I mean, Since this is hitachi signalling wouldnt this be different since were not using bombardiers old stuff?

 

[kotsy]

probably dm's would be best.

I was going to say, that's the only way to guarantee it. But then it becomes, who to DM?
At the end of the day, it would be cool to see your pic but hearing confirmation that some tunnel liners have been installed is good enough for me. I'm sure Metrolinx will post something soon enough for everyone to see

 

[Undead]

So asking for evidence is a bit disingenuous, unless you're saying we shouldn't speculate or rely on unofficial sources when government suppresses information.

Nah it's a reasonable ask. Based on the OP's tone and history of posting that specific claim, it was much more likely to be baseless speculation/starting shit rather than any genuine leak.

Respectfully, your tone always clearly indicated you were not posting that claim in good faith. To my knowledge, there were never any genuine leaks from insiders here confirming a bombshell of a claim like a slab being cracked. If an insider can confirm, I'll take my words back, but until then it's best for you to stop posting that.

 

[A 6264]

The date announced in 2022 was 2031, not 2030:

Contract Awarded for Ontario Line RSSOM Package

Infrastructure Ontario and Metrolinx have awarded a contract to Connect 6ix valued at $9B ($2.3B for capital costs and $6.7B for short-term construction financing and transaction costs, train costs and 30-year operations and maintenance, lifecycle, and long-term financing).

www.infrastructureontario.ca

Ironically, I was going to reply to you with a link to a nearly identical page on the same site, which says 2030.
LINK

 

[urbanclient]

Ironically, I was going to reply to you with a link to a nearly identical page on the same site, which says 2030.
LINK

To be pedantic, the first link for the Rolling Stock, Systems, Operations and Maintenance contract says "The project is anticipated to be completed in 2031."

Your link says, "The South Civil contract is anticipated to be completed in 2030."

Here's another link: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2024/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-247725.pdf

Also, wikipedia has shown 2031 for the last 4 years as well, citing a Toronto Star article from November 2022 (same time as several contract awards).

Anyways, what matters is, the southern TBM launch has been slow, LSE express hasn't been restored for 2 years, station construction has hit delays. The earliest possible opening date is 2033 IMO, and delays compound so 2035 is more realistic.

 

[Aplus23]

To be pedantic, the first link for the Rolling Stock, Systems, Operations and Maintenance contract says "The project is anticipated to be completed in 2031."

Your link says, "The South Civil contract is anticipated to be completed in 2030."

Here's another link: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2024/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-247725.pdf

Also, wikipedia has shown 2031 for the last 4 years as well, citing a Toronto Star article from November 2022 (same time as several contract awards).

Anyways, what matters is, the southern TBM launch has been slow, LSE express hasn't been restored for 2 years, station construction has hit delays. The earliest possible opening date is 2033 IMO, and delays compound so 2035 is more realistic.

Aren't there possibilities things pick up quickly at some point, I don't believe we are in top-gear construction phase for the project as of yet, maybe the tbms are smooth sailing

 

[urbanclient]

Aren't there possibilities things pick up quickly at some point, I don't believe we are in top-gear construction phase for the project as of yet, maybe the tbms are smooth sailing

Yes, but let's say something is delayed 1 year in starting, the 2031 timeline already assumed smooth sailing. A 1 year delay cannot be caught up with smooth-er sailing.

Station delay example:

Expect 6 months delay from this timeline due to Queen station shafts design is currently being revised. There might be a pause of excavation at this station once it reaches bottom of piles (bedrock level).

 

[felix123]

Is it really? I thought 2031 was the target date, with the more realistic best-case scenario being around 2033.


I actually hope the SSE & YNSE open around 2035 or later too, to avoid having to divert T1 replacement trains for service expansion, thus delaying their retirement even more.

I'd rather have the SSE with T1s in 2030 than 2035 or later, but with newer trains.

 

[smallspy]

Billion dollar question is if Metrolinx has learned something from Eglinton. Judging how gingerly they dig around Pape station I would say maybe?

They absolutely have. The stations at University and Yonge are being built to vastly inferior layouts specifically to avoid the kind of problems that they had to deal with at Eglinton.

Of course, the takeaway is that they have learned to make it worse, so........I guess that's still a lesson learned?

I mean, Since this is hitachi signalling wouldnt this be different since were not using bombardiers old stuff?

The fact that it was Bombardier's system was not inherent to the problems. Look at the issues that they had with the Alstom system installed on the YUS.

The fact of the matter is that any ATO/ATC system is an order of magnitude more complex than any fixed-block system using wayside signals and operators reading and running to them. And the fact that there will be no operators at all on the Ontario Line to fall back on is only going to mean that the complexity ramps up even more, as the system needs to be flawless from day one - not "just about there" or "we think it's fine".

Dan

 

[urbanclient]

They absolutely have. The stations at University and Yonge are being built to vastly inferior layouts specifically to avoid the kind of problems that they had to deal with at Eglinton.

Of course, the takeaway is that they have learned to make it worse, so........I guess that's still a lesson learned?


The fact that it was Bombardier's system was not inherent to the problems. Look at the issues that they had with the Alstom system installed on the YUS.

The fact of the matter is that any ATO/ATC system is an order of magnitude more complex than any fixed-block system using wayside signals and operators reading and running to them. And the fact that there will be no operators at all on the Ontario Line to fall back on is only going to mean that the complexity ramps up even more, as the system needs to be flawless from day one - not "just about there" or "we think it's fine".

Dan

I thought the Eglinton issues with the system had a lot to do with its bespoke nature no? It wasn't off-the-shelf Cityflo 650 CBTC?

 

[smallspy]

I thought the Eglinton issues with the system had a lot to do with its bespoke nature no? It wasn't off-the-shelf Cityflo 650 CBTC?

No ATC/ATO signalling system is truly "off the shelf". Think of it more like Microsoft Excel. The software gives you a framework that you can do things within it, but you want it to perform a calculation? That's on you to write the equation, not the software. Systems like Cityflo and Urbalis and Seltrac give you that framework to - in theory - run the trains safely and frequently. But you need to configure them for what you want them to do, which includes things like speed limits, stations, stopping patterns, routes, etc.

While there were some issues with the interface between the tunneled and surface section, they were corrected quite early on. Much more of an issue where the accidents and near accidents that they had. Those had to be written out of the software and then tested and debugged.

Dan

 

[generalcanada]

The fact that it was Bombardier's system was not inherent to the problems. Look at the issues that they had with the Alstom system installed on the YUS.

The fact of the matter is that any ATO/ATC system is an order of magnitude more complex than any fixed-block system using wayside signals and operators reading and running to them. And the fact that there will be no operators at all on the Ontario Line to fall back on is only going to mean that the complexity ramps up even more, as the system needs to be flawless from day one - not "just about there" or "we think it's fine".

But when you look at what CDPQ have done with the REM, it sounded like testing went off with no problem?
Is that attributable to better planning? a better product they used? or From the sounds of it..luck?

Hell the Canada line has been running driverless trains for over 15 years. Why is this going to be so much different?

 

[urbanclient]

But when you look at what CDPQ have done with the REM, it sounded like testing went off with no problem?
Is that attributable to better planning? a better product they used? or From the sounds of it..luck?

Hell the Canada line has been running driverless trains for over 15 years. Why is this going to be so much different?

Cityflo 650 CBTC - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are plenty of cases where Cityflo 650 CBTC was used without as much of a hitch. But maybe @smallspy is implying an Eglinton level of incompetence for the Ontario Line (Hitachi; Seltrac or another product lineage?)

 

[adys123]

Tying the rolling stock with the signalling systems will probably also help quite a bit with the integration and testing aspect. Certainly there were issues that arose from the Line 5 situation with a separate signalling and rolling stock contract.

 

[urbanclient]

Tying the rolling stock with the signalling systems will probably also help quite a bit with the integration and testing aspect. Certainly there were issues that arose from the Line 5 situation with a separate signalling and rolling stock contract.

Not saying I disagree with what you're saying, but doesn't Eglinton use Bombardier for both trains and CBTC? (Now Alstom)

You would think Line 6 Finch West would've had more software problems since they use Alstom trains and Thales (now Hitachi) Seltrac CBTC.

Ontario Line would have Hitachi for both trains and CBTC.