evandyk
Senior Member
The 502 hasn't run in almost a decade.
- Thread starter JasonParis
- Start date
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
The 507 didn't run for a long time before coming back. The 502 could return.
A 6264
Active Member
People keep forgetting, the Queen car goes all the way to Long Branch. Maybe there is still pushback to the idea, but don't leave Mimico/New Toronto/Long Branch out of the "loop".
Of course I agree there should not be a downtown gap in the middle of the Queen route, but situations will not be back to normal until the line is finished and open, in a decade or two.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
The Coxwell streetcar ran on Kingston Road during evenings, nights, and weekends as the KINGSTON RD-COXWELL special service, extending from its main loop at Danforth and Coxwell, before replaced by buses. Could see a return of the Coxwell streetcar as the 502 to feed Line 3 at Riverside/Leslieville Station using a Jimmie Simpson Park loop.
ShonTron
Moderator
No point speculating on what transit would look like so far down the road. Especially when there’s long term plans to extend streetcar tracks south on Broadview to East Harbour and into the Portlands. But there certainly wouldn’t be a need for a restored 502 along with a 503 on Queen East/Kingston Road.
I know certain forum members love to flood threads with posts on tangential history lessons, but I don’t see the point here.
I know certain forum members love to flood threads with posts on tangential history lessons, but I don’t see the point here.
Rainforest
Senior Member
The 504's east side will likely see a drop in demand. That means, will need to rebalance, and run more service on the west side, relatively less on the east side.
Long Branch, for sure, but I'd rather not run that service all the way to Neville Loop; too hard to maintain even headways for such a long route. The Long Branch streetcar should turn back somewhere near Yonge or Parliament, or maybe connect to the OL's Exhibition station.
Maybe, its is best not to run too many distinct routes on the same tracks. Rather, have just the 503, but running with a decent frequency, all day, between the Riverside/Leslieville Stn and the Bingham loop. Plus, the 501 that serves Queen St all the way to Neville loop.
More routes would mean longer wait times on each route.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
"When the Bloor-Danforth subway (today's Line 2) opened in February 1966, the TTC did reduce service on the streetcar lines that fed into it, including the King and Dundas routes, as part of a plan to encourage passengers to use the new subway. However, this reduction was short-lived, as ridership on the streetcars didn't decrease as expected. The TTC quickly reversed the cuts and had to increase streetcar service to nearly pre-subway levels to meet demand"
A 6264
Active Member
Yeah, well, that's the pushback I was talking about. I used to live in New Toronto (though I don't anymore), and it was a huge day of celebration when the TTC decided to merge the Queen and Long Branch streetcars into one, and do away with the transfer at Humber Loop. Especially since there was often an absurdly long wait at the loop, and also at Roncesvalles, because on the Queen line, westbound drivers always wanted to short turn at the barns at Roncesvalles to end their shifts, and the connection between Humber and Roncesvalles was underserviced. Drivers who had been stuck in downtown traffic, would often be past the end of their shift by the time they got to Roncesvalles, so they would do an abrupt unscheduled short turn. Between 5 and 7 PM, virtually EVERY westbound streetcar would short-turn at Roncesvalles, and there were almost no streetcars connecting Humber to Roncesvalles during that 2 hour period.
When it was proposed that the 2 lines merge, people said it won't work, the line will be too long. But when the TTC actually tried it, it worked just fine. The problem of "maintaining even headway" was resolved by, well, making short turns where necessary, without taking a key connecting section out of service for 2 hours during rush hour. Now you're saying a continuous Long Branch to Neville route won't work, because it's too long. Same old unjustified assertion, and certainly not made by someone who actually has a reason to travel frequently from one end to the other, or at least from one end to downtown.
A few posts pack, ShonTron complained about people going off topic and giving tangential history lessons. My apologies for doing it again.
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crs1026
Superstar
I don't consider this particular history lesson to be off topic. The point being, many of the things that cause delays along the 501 are within TTC's control - and more within the City's control - if anyone cared. The connectivity to Long Branch is certainly on topic for Line 3.
I wonder whether the Long Branch connection might make more sense as a branch of 504, especially if the King streetcar measures were re-energised. Do people coming from Long Branch actually want to travel on Queen, or are they just trying to get somewhere central, or to transfer to north-south routes? If the latter, maybe a quick trip along King is better. And maybe connectivity to Line 3 sooner, at Exhibition or even Bathurst, is more efficient than the crawl along Queen.
Do customers from Long Branch really need one-seat rides all the way to Neville?
Definitely, the transfer at Humber Loop should be eliminated - but there may be other good routing options further east.
- Paul
A 6264
Active Member
I presume you were asking me, but like I said, I don't live out that way anymore. In the 1970s I used the streetcar to get to downtown shopping (Eatons, Simpsons, Sam the Record Man), and to attend what was then called Ryerson Polytechnical Institute. There are 2 reasons using the streetcar was good then, but would not be now: the trip took just an hour, but I'm sure it would be a lot longer today, because the streets are more crowded; and the other option would have been to take 2 routes to get from my home to the subway, which made that option a longer trip, but now the road systems and transit in the suburbs have expanded and improved, so I would be using the subway instead today.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
Coming from Long Branch today you would most likely actually be using GO transit, which according to google maps can get you to Ryerson in about 40 minutes.
Taking the Queen Streetcar is giving a travel time of 1:45 today, but a lot of that is the awful traffic it endures to get across downtown with the Ontario Line construction.
416InTrouble
Active Member
Agree. When lakeshore GO at Mimico and Long branch get to 15 minutE intervals it will be time to stop new Toronto streetcar at Humber Loop as Mimico and Long Branch are better served by Go Train with stops at the CNE which will unlock Ontario Line access
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Not Humber Loop, but the Park Lawn Loop for 501, 507, and 66B buses. It would have access to GO trains at its Park Lawn GO Station. The Humber Loop would be only as a backup or short turn for the 501 streetcar and 66A bus. The Park Lawn Loop and Station could also be a terminal or station for a westerly Line 3 extension.
(Subject to a complete road network redesign for Park Lawn & Lake Shore.
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416InTrouble
Active Member
Totally fair - that’s IF any of this actually happens this decade. I think the best we’ll see is 15 min lakeshore GO service tho
T3G
Senior Member
You're saying it could return, only to be cut back again when (if) the Ontario Line opens...? East of the Don River, the 502 and 503 shared 100% of their route, I don't see what purpose having two route numbers instead of 1 would serve. And, remember that the 502 and 503 were both limited service routes with poor levels of individual service - the improved 503 offers way better service than the 502/503 of yesteryear ever did. There is no point in bringing back the 502.
Only late at night. During the day, the split at Humber loop is maintained - they restored the split service in 2016.
Back in the 2000s, I remember reading quite a few people calling for the Long Branch car to be restored to its own route and routed up to Dundas West. I don't know how feasible that really is - Dundas West seems to be quite a zoo.