[sixrings]

Since I have walked the corridor for the LRT from end to end a fair number of times and not all at the same time, I know the corridor well. I have walked some areas a lot more than others as well talked to people in those areas about the coming of the LRT, so it have a understanding of the current riders concerns. I believe one must drive, use transit and walk where possible of a route to understand the need for the corridor as well shoot it. One needs to do observations of various areas to see what ridership is like today and what it maybe down the road based on a number of things.

You think everyone lives on Hurontario or a major route and the answer is no. For those who live on those routes, it not much of a walk, but a different story for those who have to walking 1-3 blocks off the route. Depending on those side streets, a rider may have to do a double back once they hit that street along with the other block or 2 that the total distance is 2-3 or more than the distance between stops. As for Derry to Ray Lawson what is there now? Nothing, but could be something around Topflight in the future that has huge amount of empty land and be used for industrial or mid rise commercial since it is in the flight path of the airport. North Service Rd to Mineola is low density with many homes converted to office space with ridership coming in off the side street

Like or not, there will be other stations to be added to the line over time, as they are already plan for and will be built once the need for it is met and I have noted one of them. It has poured concrete between the rails like all the current platforms that have seen concrete to anchor the tracks in place. Not sure why they encased the rails as most stations I have seen elsewhere only see exposed rail. Crosstown has exposed rail for all the stations on the line including the surface ones. Finch is all concrete for the line until Hwy 27. No idea about the Keele station since it not open.


What is the waking distance between Yonge and Bayview with no station between them? There was to been a station between the 2 stations, but was removed from the plan due to low ridership numbers at the time. There are now a fair number of developments of towers on the books to be built in that section with more to come at a future date at would justify a future station where one was originally plan for in the first place, It would have to be built like the North York Station with the platforms on the side.

You may think its a waste, but not to the people that are forced to take the bus, especially the accessibility community and people with young children. The Sheppard bus and the Yonge 97 bus run every 30 minutes. As a note, I have walked those blocks for the 97 a few times not all at the same time and not a great walk on winter days or very hot days. I have walked in the shoes of riders to understand their needs for stops and buses while keeping in mind stop spacing is important for various areas.

The stop between Yonge and bay view was removed not because of low ridership but a combination of rich nimbys and the politicians saying great now we can save a few bucks.

In the Shepard case a parallel route is needed. And truthfully if I’m going east of don mills on Shepard I just wait for the bus at Yonge versus taking the subway a few stops and then have to transfer again. I’m suggesting on an lrt route we should be able to have closer spacing so that the parallel routes aren’t necessary.

 

[drum118]

Going to have to disagree with you on the idea that speed isn't at the top of people's lists. Lots of people refuse to take the downtown Toronto streetcars because it's literally faster to walk most of the time. If the service isn't fast enough, then some people won't take transit at all.

For your last point above, why would we listen to a few complainers and ruin the entire transit line so a few people can save 150 feet of walking...?

It sounds like what you're looking for is basically better bus service and not a true LRT line.

I find it faster to walk than use the streetcar in Toronto to a point and it starts a the top of the city level. No enforcing traffic laws, not turning on transit priority traffic signals, not using the bar system for transit, poor line management and most of all, not making transit First these day. Left turns are a killer. Riders want the quality of service, but when service is supposed to be every 7 minutes and 2 cars come 15-30 minute apart, riders give up and start walking. When I look at the next vehicle app and see it going to sometime before an LRV arrives and where I want to go, I start walking. In some cases I get off at x stop and walked to where I am going to or making a transfer as it is faster than sitting on the streetcar caught up in traffic trying to make a turn. More so a peak time.

Systems were built in the first place to meet riders needs for stops with no standards for stop spacing. Once stops spacing started to increase, planners fail to say no those few riders who wanted less walking to a stop and its a problem that affect everyone one. You will get the comment by the power to be that most of those poor stop spacing stop will see service bypass them most of the time and no big deal. It time to do away with that thinking and deal with standards spacing. Some had to due with the distance between streets.

Unlike Toronto or NYC, Blocks is Mississauga a very long in many cases with no walkways mid blocks or so to get to the side streets, making it an unwalkable city and the need for a car.

To run a true LRT on Hurontario like you see requires removing a few of those plan stops and what is the goal doing it when it will only benefit a few riders?? The goal is to get people to use transit in the first place.

 

[stevedean]

I find it faster to walk than use the streetcar in Toronto to a point and it starts a the top of the city level. No enforcing traffic laws, not turning on transit priority traffic signals, not using the bar system for transit, poor line management and most of all, not making transit First these day. Left turns are a killer. Riders want the quality of service, but when service is supposed to be every 7 minutes and 2 cars come 15-30 minute apart, riders give up and start walking. When I look at the next vehicle app and see it going to sometime before an LRV arrives and where I want to go, I start walking. In some cases I get off at x stop and walked to where I am going to or making a transfer as it is faster than sitting on the streetcar caught up in traffic trying to make a turn. More so a peak time.

Systems were built in the first place to meet riders needs for stops with no standards for stop spacing. Once stops spacing started to increase, planners fail to say no those few riders who wanted less walking to a stop and its a problem that affect everyone one. You will get the comment by the power to be that most of those poor stop spacing stop will see service bypass them most of the time and no big deal. It time to do away with that thinking and deal with standards spacing. Some had to due with the distance between streets.

Unlike Toronto or NYC, Blocks is Mississauga a very long in many cases with no walkways mid blocks or so to get to the side streets, making it an unwalkable city and the need for a car.

To run a true LRT on Hurontario like you see requires removing a few of those plan stops and what is the goal doing it when it will only benefit a few riders?? The goal is to get people to use transit in the first place.

I will fully admit you have done more research on the specifics of Hurontario street, and it's good that you've talked to folks who live in the area.
I will also admit that if there are stops that are 1.5km apart or more, then it might make sense to include a stop in-between.

However, I think we need to recognize that speaking to a few people along the route, and asking them what they want, does not always translate into the best system for the majority of people. Every individual is going to want a stop as close as possible to their home - but that's not ideal for the majority of people.
I think we also need to acknowledge that there is a equilibrium that needs to be reached with number of stops + speed of trains (ex. too many stops may translate into slow speeds, and too few stops might = lack of riders).

I'm still a believer that this LRT system should operate as something between a heavy rail subway and the Toronto streetcars. Some people have pointed towards the downtown Toronto subway stops which are fast but only 500meters apart in some cases.

 

[mikey7767]

I find it faster to walk than use the streetcar in Toronto to a point and it starts a the top of the city level. No enforcing traffic laws, not turning on transit priority traffic signals, not using the bar system for transit, poor line management and most of all, not making transit First these day. Left turns are a killer. Riders want the quality of service, but when service is supposed to be every 7 minutes and 2 cars come 15-30 minute apart, riders give up and start walking. When I look at the next vehicle app and see it going to sometime before an LRV arrives and where I want to go, I start walking. In some cases I get off at x stop and walked to where I am going to or making a transfer as it is faster than sitting on the streetcar caught up in traffic trying to make a turn. More so a peak time.

Systems were built in the first place to meet riders needs for stops with no standards for stop spacing. Once stops spacing started to increase, planners fail to say no those few riders who wanted less walking to a stop and its a problem that affect everyone one. You will get the comment by the power to be that most of those poor stop spacing stop will see service bypass them most of the time and no big deal. It time to do away with that thinking and deal with standards spacing. Some had to due with the distance between streets.

Unlike Toronto or NYC, Blocks is Mississauga a very long in many cases with no walkways mid blocks or so to get to the side streets, making it an unwalkable city and the need for a car.

To run a true LRT on Hurontario like you see requires removing a few of those plan stops and what is the goal doing it when it will only benefit a few riders?? The goal is to get people to use transit in the first place.

It is time to do away with the thinking that you have to cater to people who would rather slow down an entire line or system just to save a few minutes of walking. Which I see as pure laziness and entitlement. And if anything, slowing down a line takes away more people from transit than it adds by having those extra stops.

 

[Bojaxs]

It is time to do away with the thinking that you have to cater to people who would rather slow down an entire line or system just to save a few minutes of walking. Which I see as pure laziness and entitlement. And if anything, slowing down a line takes away more people from transit than it adds by having those extra stops.

The hesitation to walk, I don't know if it's a cultural thing in GTA, or if it's because of the weather, car centric city design. A lot of people walk in the underground (PATH), so it must be due to the cold weather or poor walkability of the city.

When I was in London last month, it was apparent to me that people there were more willing to walk to get to a transit station. Even in regards to making a transfer. Canary Wharf requires a bit of walking to make a transfer. People in London just in general seemed more willing to walk to get around. I think it was in part due to London feeling more walkable than Toronto.

Londoners walk really fast. When I was entering or leaving an tube station I felt the pressure to keep up with the crowd or risk getting trampled.

I guess my point being is, Canadian cities are not designed with walking in mind, so this leads to people wanting more stations along transit lines and makes for slower transit.

 

[sixrings]

The hesitation to walk, I don't know if it's a cultural thing in GTA, or if it's because of the weather, car centric city design. A lot of people walk in the underground (PATH), so it must be due to the cold weather or poor walkability of the city.

When I was in London last month, it was apparent to me that people there were more willing to walk to get to a transit station. Even in regards to making a transfer. Canary Wharf requires a bit of walking to make a transfer. People in London just in general seemed more willing to walk to get around. I think it was in part due to London feeling more walkable than Toronto.

Londoners walk really fast. When I was entering or leaving an tube station I felt the pressure to keep up with the crowd or risk getting trampled.

I guess my point being is, Canadian cities are not designed with walking in mind, so this leads to people wanting more stations along transit lines and makes for slower transit.

If you really think people are lazy then don’t waste money running a parallel bus route to enable them.

But the streetcar network averages a stop every 200m.

The closest stop spacing on the subway network between Bloor and queen is 500m. And Hurontario we have basically have stops every 1000m.

So even if we add a couple stops this suddenly doesn’t become a street car.

Really balmy thinking is between Eglinton and Dundas we better have the right amount of stops because this will be the densest area on the network.

But I say this with reservations because if the Milton line never branches or a subway never makes it to MCC and the lrt is literally a last mile shuttle we don’t want that shuttle to be painfully slow.

Anyways one or two added stops is not going to make this a street car network.

 

[Billybill]

Did I just read a post calling my grandma lazy and entitled for wanting a stop relatively near her condo that she can comfortably use her walker?

Elm drive/Mississauga Valley has like 12 condo buildings that are not properly serviced with a LRT stop. Well over 70% being older 1980s condos filled with... you guessed it old people!

Nobody seems to take into account demographics or density when they created this line, all in the name is saving a few minutes at the expense of less ridership. I wouldn't call Granny selfish and entitled more old and not very nimble

 

[khaldoon]

Did I just read a post calling my grandma lazy and entitled for wanting a stop relatively near her condo that she can comfortably use her walker?

Elm drive/Mississauga Valley has like 12 condo buildings that are not properly serviced with a LRT stop. Well over 70% being older 1980s condos filled with... you guessed it old people!

Nobody seems to take into account demographics or density when they created this line, all in the name is saving a few minutes at the expense of less ridership. I wouldn't call Granny selfish and entitled more old and not very nimble

Such decisions were probably made by some consultant in London who never set a foot in Mississauga and made based on some theoretical model.

 

[T3G]

Did I just read a post calling my grandma lazy and entitled for wanting a stop relatively near her condo that she can comfortably use her walker?

Elm drive/Mississauga Valley has like 12 condo buildings that are not properly serviced with a LRT stop. Well over 70% being older 1980s condos filled with... you guessed it old people!

Nobody seems to take into account demographics or density when they created this line, all in the name is saving a few minutes at the expense of less ridership. I wouldn't call Granny selfish and entitled more old and not very nimble

I also think that those who advocate for wider stop spacing don't do their argument any favours by calling those who believe in closer stop spacing lazy and entitled, when the only functional outcome of wider stop spacing would be to shorten the trip by a couple of minutes at most. Like anyone's been ever convinced to rethink their argument when their ideological opponents slag them off!

 

[stevedean]

There has to be a happy medium for stop spacing to attract riders, but also not slowing down the line. Too many stops = too slow.
Too few stops = reduced ridership.

Everyone would love to have a stop right at their door, but that's not the best decision for creating a successful transit line.

 

[Wm Perkins Bull]

Did I just read a post calling my grandma lazy and entitled for wanting a stop relatively near her condo that she can comfortably use her walker?

Elm drive/Mississauga Valley has like 12 condo buildings that are not properly serviced with a LRT stop. Well over 70% being older 1980s condos filled with... you guessed it old people!

Nobody seems to take into account demographics or density when they created this line, all in the name is saving a few minutes at the expense of less ridership. I wouldn't call Granny selfish and entitled more old and not very nimble

To my knowledge, there is nothing preventing the City of Mississauga from operating a local bus route with a stop every 100 metres on Hurontario.

 

[T3G]

I think the ideal stop spacing for anything that isn't advertised as an express is 400-500 m. Anything that goes wider than that gets into serious accessibility issues, as not everyone lives right next to the line or happens to be able bodied. When you consign people to walking a kilometre, 1.5, just to get to their nearest transit stop, there's a good chance they'll be repelled from walking and just take the car, especially in extreme heat or cold. Especially in the suburbs, which are distinctly unwalkable and hostile as compared to European cities where people walk everywhere.

Obviously, if there's something like a hospital, old folks' home, or something else noteworthy less than 400-500 m from another noteworthy stop, having stops closer together is acceptable.

 

[sixrings]

Did I just read a post calling my grandma lazy and entitled for wanting a stop relatively near her condo that she can comfortably use her walker?

Elm drive/Mississauga Valley has like 12 condo buildings that are not properly serviced with a LRT stop. Well over 70% being older 1980s condos filled with... you guessed it old people!

Nobody seems to take into account demographics or density when they created this line, all in the name is saving a few minutes at the expense of less ridership. I wouldn't call Granny selfish and entitled more old and not very nimble

Your entitled grandma can wait for the parallel bus route to get her to the hospital on hurontario. That hospital is 4 billion over budget so running an extra bus is peanuts in order to keep the LRT fast and efficient for young workers making monies to pay more taxes. Just joking I live off ELM.

 

[T3G]

I would also add that one of the other key factors to take into account when it comes to the willingness of people to walk to a local stop is what kind of journey they are taking, and where they are going.

If I'm going for a leisurely stroll in the park in early May? My threshold for how far I'm willing to walk is going to be different to a nurse who has to run around for 12 hours on their feet, or a retail worker who will be on their feet for 8 hours, sometimes racking up 4-5 km just within their shift. I've been on both sides of the aisle (well, not the nurse thing) and some shifts were so draining I would rather Uber Eats lunch to work rather than walk 100-400 m one way to the nearest fast food joints (also, if it was bitterly cold. Nuts to that.) So it's not accurate to call anyone who doesn't want to walk extended distances to get to their transit stop lazy without knowing their circumstances.

 

[sixrings]

To my knowledge, there is nothing preventing the City of Mississauga from operating a local bus route with a stop every 100 metres on Hurontario.

The spacing is almost 1000m apart. You don’t need to go the other extreme route and suggest something like 100m spacing.