sixrings
Senior Member
I think one has to ask themselves why this line will have such wide spacing right through the downtown. The very place people are most likely to live and or want to go?
stevedean
Active Member
It's a valid question - I don't know the specifics for why every stop location was chosen.
I'm just saying if we add too many stops to acomodate everyone, it could seriously hamper the ability of the line to operate successfully.
sixrings
Senior Member
Sure I get it. But this area currently has the density with added density coming and with a current bus stop. It’s an ideal location for people to walk right on. I get that central parkway isn’t that far but I’m pretty sure that Wally’s is only bringing in so many people, the esso is essentially not bringing in any and the office building on the south west side is planned for demolition to bring density that would still be far less than what elm currently has.
stevedean
Active Member
Drum was advocating for multiple additional stops earlier which I was questioning.
There probably is one or two locations that deserve a stop.
sixrings
Senior Member
This is one of those spots
T3G
Senior Member
For the sake of transparency, I've written out all the stop distances. I'm going by the list on Wikipedia so these may not reflect the exact alignment of the stop , but it's a close enough guide:
Brampton Gateway - County Court: 658 m
County Court - Ray Lawson: 484 m
Ray Lawson - Derry: 1.95 km
Derry - Courtneypark: 1.39 km
Courtneypark - Britannia: 1.70 km
Britannia - Matheson: 1.02 km
Matheson - Bristol: 800 m
Bristol - Eglinton: 1.2 km
Eglinton - Square One: 1.75 km (approx., I have no idea where the stop will actually be)
Square One - Robert Speck: 930 m (approx., I have no idea where the Square One stop is still)
Robert Speck - Burnhamthorpe: 380 m
Burnhamthorpe - Fairview: 959 m
Fairview - Cooksville GO: 486 m
Cooksville GO - Dundas: 679 m
Dundas - Queensway; 1.01 km
Queensway - North Service: 634 m
North Service - Mineola: 1.35 km
Mineola - Port Credit: 641 m
I will refrain from commenting on the sections north of Bristol, as they are all sprawling employment lands and I have no idea what travel demands are like there. (Considering how many economically disenfranchised people work in warehouses and such like, though, I doubt this stop spacing is adequate). But a lot of the stop spacing south of Bristol is really, really bad. The line passes through mostly residential, sometimes mixed use areas, and there are a lot of long stretches in this area that don't have a stop. Is the goal here merely to provide a Port Credit - Square One - Brampton shuttle, or is the goal here to actually encourage more people to get out of their cars and increase the transit modal share? Because a lot of these distances are simply not going to do the latter job. At all. And Will Metrolinx be so gracious as to allow MiWay to use the LRT ROW for their local buses, or will these people, on top of all the other indignities they have to suffer, be made to sit in traffic while the LRT zooms right on by?
To that effect, I would implement stops at: Strathaven (568 m from Bristol and 646 m from Eglinton); Kinsbridge Garden (425 m from Eglinton and that greenfield is practicaly begging for a monster condo development); Elm (425 m from Burnhamthorpe and 509 m from Fairview); a midblock stop just south of Floradale (550 m from Dundas, 416 m from Queensway); Pinewood (836 m from North Service and 440 m from Mineola). As for what is north of Bristol, are these not going to be request stops, or what's the hooplah all about? Using a combination of request stops and light priority, you could implement quite a few stops in the employment lands north of Bristol that would be used by people going to work there when those are operating, and sail right on by when they're closed.
Brampton Gateway - County Court: 658 m
County Court - Ray Lawson: 484 m
Ray Lawson - Derry: 1.95 km
Derry - Courtneypark: 1.39 km
Courtneypark - Britannia: 1.70 km
Britannia - Matheson: 1.02 km
Matheson - Bristol: 800 m
Bristol - Eglinton: 1.2 km
Eglinton - Square One: 1.75 km (approx., I have no idea where the stop will actually be)
Square One - Robert Speck: 930 m (approx., I have no idea where the Square One stop is still)
Robert Speck - Burnhamthorpe: 380 m
Burnhamthorpe - Fairview: 959 m
Fairview - Cooksville GO: 486 m
Cooksville GO - Dundas: 679 m
Dundas - Queensway; 1.01 km
Queensway - North Service: 634 m
North Service - Mineola: 1.35 km
Mineola - Port Credit: 641 m
I will refrain from commenting on the sections north of Bristol, as they are all sprawling employment lands and I have no idea what travel demands are like there. (Considering how many economically disenfranchised people work in warehouses and such like, though, I doubt this stop spacing is adequate). But a lot of the stop spacing south of Bristol is really, really bad. The line passes through mostly residential, sometimes mixed use areas, and there are a lot of long stretches in this area that don't have a stop. Is the goal here merely to provide a Port Credit - Square One - Brampton shuttle, or is the goal here to actually encourage more people to get out of their cars and increase the transit modal share? Because a lot of these distances are simply not going to do the latter job. At all. And Will Metrolinx be so gracious as to allow MiWay to use the LRT ROW for their local buses, or will these people, on top of all the other indignities they have to suffer, be made to sit in traffic while the LRT zooms right on by?
To that effect, I would implement stops at: Strathaven (568 m from Bristol and 646 m from Eglinton); Kinsbridge Garden (425 m from Eglinton and that greenfield is practicaly begging for a monster condo development); Elm (425 m from Burnhamthorpe and 509 m from Fairview); a midblock stop just south of Floradale (550 m from Dundas, 416 m from Queensway); Pinewood (836 m from North Service and 440 m from Mineola). As for what is north of Bristol, are these not going to be request stops, or what's the hooplah all about? Using a combination of request stops and light priority, you could implement quite a few stops in the employment lands north of Bristol that would be used by people going to work there when those are operating, and sail right on by when they're closed.
JJTheJetPln
Active Member
sixrings
Senior Member
Elm is a major intersection.
Mercury
New Member
The "Fairview" stop isn't at Fairview Road. It's at Central Parkway -- on the north side, in fact.
Therefore, these distances are quite a bit off:
On the topic of Elm Drive: The distance from Elm to Central Parkway is 250m. It's a nothing walk. I know because I used to live in this neighbourhood. If you're talking about the poor grannies with walkers, how are they even going get from, say, Mississauga Valleys over to Hurontario in the first place? It's uphill! If granny makes it all the way up Elm, the short walk over to Central Parkway should be breeze in comparison.
Therefore, these distances are quite a bit off:
Burnhamthorpe - Fairview is actually a shorter trip than Fairview - Cooksville GO
On the topic of Elm Drive: The distance from Elm to Central Parkway is 250m. It's a nothing walk. I know because I used to live in this neighbourhood. If you're talking about the poor grannies with walkers, how are they even going get from, say, Mississauga Valleys over to Hurontario in the first place? It's uphill! If granny makes it all the way up Elm, the short walk over to Central Parkway should be breeze in comparison.
sixrings
Senior Member
All three of edge towers (1007 units) are right at elm and then there’s city one condos (359 units) on the north side of the street. There’s a couple more u I can’t find the stats for online. The density here is far greater than what’s at Fairview or will ever be at Fairview.
Why are we assuming Granny lives in Mississauga Valley.
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mikey7767
New Member
I am calling you disingenuous for using your granny as a pawn to make up an argument.
There likely is going to be parallel bus route anyways. So if there already will be one, then your grandma can take the local bus route. The LRT is designed to have longer stop distances than a local bus route.
I would not subjugate people to walk 1.5 km. People who are elderly/vulnerable can take local bus routes instead. The LRT is kind of an express route. We even have Express buses throughout the city of Toronto that are popular due to less stops. Are all of those European cities that design LRTs with longer stop distances foolish for doing so? Their elderly are thriving. They have local bus routes for them. And the able bodied folks happily walk. It's a mixed system.
sixrings
Senior Member
You have not responded to the fact that there is at the very least 1500 units directly at the corner of elm drive and hurontario. There should be some incentive to choose to live at one or the busiest places in Mississauga. Instead it would seem you are more worries about the travel times of those who chose to live in the more rural parts of the city.
T3G
Senior Member
I mean, it's only fair, when your argument was predicated on not catering to people who are being lazy.
If you use provocative language, it's fair dos to expect someone to reply with equally provocative rhetoric.
Though not explicitly advertised as such.
I'm not saying there isn't room for express service, but you have to be pragmatic about it. We'll use Jane as an example as it's one of the few express routes to operate all day. The peak hour frequency for both the 35 and 935 is every 6 minutes, which is far and away superior to the quality of service provided on every 'parallel' route for rapid transit lines (25 minutes on the blended portion of Yonge, 24 minutes for Sheppard Central).
Presumably the TTC has done the math and figured out an optimized level of blended service on Jane, but the overall level of capacity is similar to what has been provided historically (the peak frequency on all branches of the 35 in 2006 was 3 minutes, so there was a minor downgrade in service quality to the local stops, but the level of personnel required was about the same - 33 in the morning rush hour today vs 34 in 2006, and 42 in evening rush hour today vs 32 in 2006). To provide an equal playing field, your proposed local bus route MUST run at frequencies matching the current LRT frequency, and be allowed to use the same right of way, otherwise those who use the local route will rightfully accuse you of shafting them and treating them like third class citizens. And it must be asked... what are the time savings? Are they worth the untold extra numbers of buses that would be required to provide the local service?
If you implemented 5 extra stops, there is no way that would add up to more than 1-3 minutes, tops. Many of the TTC express routes have dramatic differences in travel times that far outpace 1-3 minutes, so it makes sense to run their express routes. It doesn't remotely make sense to run a parallel service for the Hurontario line.
Without knowing which particular city you are referring to, I can only speculate. But it is not accurate to extrapolate this as being any kind of European standard, for for every city with wide stop spacing you can point to I can counter with one that has 400-500 m stop spacing instead.
If Mississauga's landscape looked like a European metropolis, you might be on to something. Do you really think that anyone is falling over themselves to walk for long distances in a place that looks like this?
sixrings
Senior Member
It isn’t even the unpleasant walk but most people have to walk out of their culdesacs to get to hurontario. That in itself is a challenge. And there is no busses on these residential streets to get people to hurontario. You have to walk.I mean, it's only fair, when your argument was predicated on not catering to people who are being lazy.
If you use provocative language, it's fair dos to expect someone to reply with equally provocative rhetoric.
Though not explicitly advertised as such.
I'm not saying there isn't room for express service, but you have to be pragmatic about it. We'll use Jane as an example as it's one of the few express routes to operate all day. The peak hour frequency for both the 35 and 935 is every 6 minutes, which is far and away superior to the quality of service provided on every 'parallel' route for rapid transit lines (25 minutes on the blended portion of Yonge, 24 minutes for Sheppard Central).
Presumably the TTC has done the math and figured out an optimized level of blended service on Jane, but the overall level of capacity is similar to what has been provided historically (the peak frequency on all branches of the 35 in 2006 was 3 minutes, so there was a minor downgrade in service quality to the local stops, but the level of personnel required was about the same - 33 in the morning rush hour today vs 34 in 2006, and 42 in evening rush hour today vs 32 in 2006). To provide an equal playing field, your proposed local bus route MUST run at frequencies matching the current LRT frequency, and be allowed to use the same right of way, otherwise those who use the local route will rightfully accuse you of shafting them and treating them like third class citizens. And it must be asked... what are the time savings? Are they worth the untold extra numbers of buses that would be required to provide the local service?
If you implemented 5 extra stops, there is no way that would add up to more than 1-3 minutes, tops. Many of the TTC express routes have dramatic differences in travel times that far outpace 1-3 minutes, so it makes sense to run their express routes. It doesn't remotely make sense to run a parallel service for the Hurontario line.
Without knowing which particular city you are referring to, I can only speculate. But it is not accurate to extrapolate this as being any kind of European standard, for for every city with wide stop spacing you can point to I can counter with one that has 400-500 m stop spacing instead.
If Mississauga's landscape looked like a European metropolis, you might be on to something. Do you really think that anyone is falling over themselves to walk for long distances in a place that looks like this?
