[nfitz]

A trip of 112 minutes is not a reasonable commute time...

I'm not sure what 112 is ... that would be 2 or 3 transfers.

 

[yurt2022]

I'm not sure what 112 is ... that would be 2 or 3 transfers.

From Kennedy - Mount Dennis.

Nearly 2 hours and you're not even reaching city limits.

 

[micheal_can]

If we use rush hour as a test bed for speed, and we use alternative methods of traveling from terminus to terminus, what should be the fastest in order of the following: Line 5, car, bike, walk, run?

My thinking is during rush hour, Line 5 should be the fastest.

 

[urbanclient]

From Kennedy - Mount Dennis.

Nearly 2 hours and you're not even reaching city limits.

K correction here, Kennedy to Mount Dennis would be 50 minutes. Not the advertised 38 minutes. 112 minutes is for a round trip which presumably includes 12 minutes of recovery time where the vehicle might turn around or at least do nothing at the terminus.

The underground section was always supposed to take about 21 minutes, and the eastern section 17 minutes for a total of 38 minutes. But the eastern actually takes 29 minutes which makes the end-to-end travel times 50 minutes.

29 minutes is 70% slower than 17 minutes LOL. Did they even try to hit this target? Until the Line 6 FW backlash, they had tried nothing and were all out of ideas.

It would also be the death knell, if they drive Line 5 like a streetcar in the eastern above ground section.

[edit] ***Breaking news***

I was right. Line 5 Eglinton is completely cooked. Assuming 12 minutes recovery time at terminuses. The round trip is in fact 100 minutes, or 50 minutes end-to-end.

- Myers: what is the estimated run time for Line 5. TTC staff: contractual number for round trip time is 98 minutes during rush hour and 90 minutes outside rush hour
- The current schedule we have for RSD is currently scheduling 112 minutes round trip
- Myers: are there any measures being considered to speed up the runtime? TTC staff: Any moves would have to be done in consideration with Mosaic and Metrolinx. At this point in time cannot say there are alternatives being discussed.

I am going to go on limb and predict that there will be no where near the type of criticism of this line compared to Line 6 (FWLRT).

We shall see... If they can't properly do short-turns, there might be no way to mitigate the inevitable bunching and delays on the non-ATC surface section. And no, it's not the fact that there is a transition between underground ATC to surface manual operations that causes bunching. Nor is it the fact that there exists an underground and surface section that causes bunching. Just in case someone tries strawmanning me about how it's mathematically impossible for bunching to occur as if this is a high school physics question where friction is non-existent. Only on well programmed ATC and ATO systems i.e. semi-automated and fully automated can bunching potentially be eliminated.

One-off delays like a car hitting the tram, or a snow plow clogging up the tracks with snow would only happen on the surface section.

I made an edit earlier "[...]Dwell times are often longer and less consistent than metros due to bottlenecked boarding and alighting inherent in tram design."

We're not saying bunching occurs because someone fell asleep at the wheel and decided to idle at one stop for 4 minutes. We're saying bunching occurs due to cascading, compounding delays. For example, a driver that is just 1 minute slower at the halfway point, a green light that is missed by a few seconds leading to a 60 second red light, a handicapped passenger taking longer to board, a rowdy passenger refusing to pay their fare, a call from dispatch to hold 30 seconds longer at one stop, higher passenger traffic at one stop etc... etc...

In theory, the 510 Spadina shouldn't bunch with 7'45" headways on Saturday afternoons, but literally every time I'm on it at that time I see bunching. 506 Carlton had 9 minute headways today, and yet I could see two 506s within metres of each other going westbound near Yonge:
View attachment 706614
Longer headways only help prevent bunching in the same manner that excess schedule padding prevents bunching (see TTC schedules 24/7 365). It doesn't solve the underlying deficiencies inherent in design. Here's proof of Line 6 Finch West bunching, the train behind going eastbound is only 6 masts west of another train arriving at the Driftwood eastbound stop, or about 150 metres away:
View attachment 706615View attachment 706616

Line 5 Eglinton, if opened on February 8th, will have had only 53 days since the last Council motion was passed to speed up the LRTs and streetcars.

There won't be stronger TSP on opening. The main reason for the opening being delayed from late 2025 to 2026 had little to do with the weak TSP. Even then, better TSP could theoretically reduce bunching, but not eliminate it. You can look up the rumoured reasons for the Dec '25 - Feb? '26 delayed opening on Reddit and Steve Munro's website. https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2025.MM35.15

 

[yurt2022]

K correction here, Kennedy to Mount Dennis would be 50 minutes. Not the advertised 38 minutes. 112 minutes is for a round trip which presumably includes 12 minutes of recovery time where the vehicle might turn around or at least do nothing at the terminus.

The underground section was always supposed to take about 21 minutes, and the eastern section 17 minutes for a total of 38 minutes. But the eastern actually takes 29 minutes which makes the end-to-end travel times 50 minutes.

29 minutes is 70% slower than 17 minutes LOL. Did they even try to hit this target? Until the Line 6 FW backlash, they had tried nothing and were all out of ideas.






We shall see... If they can't properly do short-turns, there might be no way to mitigate the inevitable bunching and delays on the non-ATC surface section. And no, it's not the fact that there is a transition between underground ATC to surface manual operations that causes bunching. Nor is it the fact that there exists an underground and surface section that causes bunching. Just in case someone tries strawmanning me about how it's mathematically impossible for bunching to occur as if this is a high school physics question where friction is non-existent. Only on well programmed ATC and ATO systems i.e. semi-automated and fully automated can bunching potentially be eliminated.

One-off delays like a car hitting the tram, or a snow plow clogging up the tracks with snow would only happen on the surface section.


Line 5 Eglinton, if opened on February 8th, will have had only 53 days since the last Council motion was passed to speed up the LRTs and streetcars.

There won't be stronger TSP on opening. The main reason for the opening being delayed from late 2025 to 2026 had little to do with the weak TSP. Even then, better TSP could theoretically reduce bunching, but not eliminate it. You can look up the rumoured reasons for the Dec '25 - Feb? '26 delayed opening on Reddit and Steve Munro's website. https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2025.MM35.15

What needs to happen is an uprooting of TTC management and staff that have promoted all these terrible operating practices over the last decade.

There needs to be a Stalin style purge at the TTC, and Byford needs to be brought back.

 

[nfitz]

From Kennedy - Mount Dennis.

Nearly 2 hours and you're not even reaching city limits.

Where are you getting that number from. Do you have a reference? Perhaps that's the round-trip time, including the layovers at the terminals?

 

[ThenWhat]

I am going to go on limb and predict that there will be no where near the type of criticism of this line compared to Line 6 (FWLRT). First of all […]

TTC can avoid most of the negative reaction if they advertise the service on Line 5 as "soft opening" AND keep the existing bus network in place for some initial period.
For Line 6, TTC communications refer to it as "soft launch", but that cannot be taken seriously when they at the same time cancelled the bus service that people used previously.
We can forever discuss apportioning the blame for all the problems with Line 6. But cancelling the 36 bus along Finch West was TTC decision.

 

[Rainforest]

If we use rush hour as a test bed for speed, and we use alternative methods of traveling from terminus to terminus, what should be the fastest in order of the following: Line 5, car, bike, walk, run?

My thinking is during rush hour, Line 5 should be the fastest.

Yes, Line 5 will be the fastest during the rush hours.

Even with the ridiculously slow operation on surface similar to what we see on Line 6. Those slow sections make 40% of the length. The other 60% is tunneled or elevated, and that will make the overall travel time competitive.

 

[Chaplinurbex]

What stupidity of the TTC

Track quality of a brand new line?!

He's just making shit up. This forum is full of "experts" talking about every single rumor under the sun. Remember when everyone was going on and on about stations sinking or had cracked foundations and therefore "it will never open because no one knows how to fix it".

 

[micheal_can]

Yes, Line 5 will be the fastest during the rush hours.

Even with the ridiculously slow operation on surface similar to what we see on Line 6. Those slow sections make 40% of the length. The other 60% is tunneled or elevated, and that will make the overall travel time competitive.

Isn't this the point? The subways are not the fastest when there is little traffic to contend with. So, if the LRT is faster than driving at the most congested times of day, how is that a bad thing?

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

I am going to go on limb and predict that there will be no where near the type of criticism of this line compared to Line 6 (FWLRT). First of all ,the station spacing west of Don Mills seems reasonable to me. East of Don Mills could be another story though. But still, most of the line should allow for reasonable commute times, moreso with grade separation. Also, there is great connectivity options with this service. For example, The UP express should see a surge in demand because this line opens up access to UP express to much much greater number of the population. You will have more options going to the airport if you live in Mid town or North York or parts of Scarborough. Unlike previously, whereby it (UP express) pretty much just took you from airport to down town, but what about everyone else who doesn't live downtown and needs to get to the airport? Lastly, most commuters wont have to freeze their A$$es off (or get soaked in the rain) waiting outside on those poor shelters, this line makes the waiting much much more bare able.

The TTC's and Metrolinx "One Fare" program allows free transfers between TTC, GO Transit, and other regional agencies, but UP Express (UPX) is NOT included. Which means, if one transfers to UPX from the TTC to get to the airport, it means an extra $$$ fare. Hopefully, the UPX train is on time, it would be quicker.

Unless the TTC actually implements the 901 Airport-Eglinton Express from Mount Dennis Station (allegedly). Then that would be just a transfer and not another fare. Hopefully, the traffic congestion caused by the single-occupant SUVs don't slow the bus trip.

(Subject to change, of course.)

 

[thettctransitfanatic]

The TTC's and Metrolinx "One Fare" program allows free transfers between TTC, GO Transit, and other regional agencies, but UP Express (UPX) is NOT included. Which means, if one transfers to UPX from the TTC to get to the airport, it means an extra $$$ fare.

Unless the TTC actually implements the 901 Airport-Eglinton Express from Mount Dennis Station (allegedly). Then that would be just a transfer and not another fare.
View attachment 710218

(Subject to change, of course.)

Metrolinx and TTC are planning on eventually implementing One Fare for the UP Express. It's just that UP Express is supposed to be a premium service so there has been some reluctance in the past to the idea, but given that UP Express is definitely being used a lot for not just airport travel but by commuters and with St Clair-Old Weston Station going to only be served by UP, TTC is forcing Metrolinx's hand on it.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Metrolinx and TTC are planning on eventually implementing One Fare for the UP Express. It's just that UP Express is supposed to be a premium service so there has been some reluctance in the past to the idea, but given that UP Express is definitely being used a lot for not just airport travel but by commuters and with St Clair-Old Weston Station going to only be served by UP, TTC is forcing Metrolinx's hand on it.

Hence the "subject to change".

 

[Burnt creek]

The TTC's and Metrolinx "One Fare" program allows free transfers between TTC, GO Transit, and other regional agencies, but UP Express (UPX) is NOT included. Which means, if one transfers to UPX from the TTC to get to the airport, it means an extra $$$ fare.

Unless the TTC actually implements the 901 Airport-Eglinton Express from Mount Dennis Station (allegedly). Then that would be just a transfer and not another fare.
View attachment 710218

(Subject to change, of course.)

True, but I still think that the extra fare for the UP Express (as opposed to integration with TTC fare) is still something that the people will pay for if they know that they are getting a premium service. And most importantly, the combined fares of TTC and UP Express will still be much much less than the cost of most ground transportation options from Pearson. The combined costs of TTC and UP will max out to $15-$16 per trip versus the $50-$70 per trip that you have to pay for cabs/Uber for example. Even the per day rates on Park and Fly, can really add up to the hundreds depending how long you are away. To keep this UP express attractive, you need good comfortable seats. You also need to be able to store, haul and carry luggage around with minimal difficulty and inconveniences. To keep all that, its got to be a premium type service and to pay extra for that, seems very fair.

Many years ago, there were suggestion to integrate. this service with with existing lines by adding stops. That thought made me shiver because that would killed the appeal of this service since it would have hampered the convenience and killed its its biggest appeal: 25 minutes from Airport to downtown.

 

[11th]

True, but I still think that the extra fare for the UP Express (as opposed to integration with TTC fare) is still something that the people will pay for if they know that they are getting a premium service. And most importantly, the combined fares of TTC and UP Express will still be much much less than the cost of most ground transportation options from Pearson. The combined costs of TTC and UP will max out to $15-$16 per trip versus the $50-$70 per trip that you have to pay for cabs/Uber for example. Even the per day rates on Park and Fly, can really add up to the hundreds depending how long you are away. To keep this UP express attractive, you need good comfortable seats. You also need to be able to store, haul and carry luggage around with minimal difficulty and inconveniences. To keep all that, its got to be a premium type service and to pay extra for that, seems very fair.

Many years ago, there were suggestion to integrate. this service with with existing lines by adding stops. That thought made me shiver because that would killed the appeal of this service since it would have hampered the convenience and killed its its biggest appeal: 25 minutes from Airport to downtown.

Can't exactly compare with cabs/Uber as they are point to point service. The premium pays for that.
A better comparison should be GO's airport routes.