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zang said:
I think if anything’s to blame, it’s PPPs and the lack of knowledgeable construction & design staff on permanent payroll.
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Yes, the PPP was a fiasco but only for construction and design. The operational issues are 100% on the City.

It's called follow the money. When you control the money, you control. Full stop. It is the City that sets the fares. It is the City that runs the municipal roads. It is the City that sets the speed limits. It is the City that funds the TTC. It is the City that controls lights & signals. It is the City that controls parking. The TTC is just a division of the City that runs a certain type of vehicles on the road and that's it. The City ultimately controls EVERYTHING about the TTC. It is the City that determines whether you will close down a stop/station. If the City decides that the TTC will do this-or-that, no matter how stupid the policy may be, the TTC MUST do it whether they like it or not. This is why every issue, such as this one, has to go to Council and/or the Mayor's office in the first place. This is why St.Clair and Spadina have signal priority design but are not allowed to use them.........the City tells them they can't and the TTC has no choice to follow their dictates.

If Toronto didn't have such a two-faced, incompetent, and gutless wonder of a Mayor and Council, this would not be an issue. This is NOT an operational issue but purely a political one. There is NO reason why Finch should not be able to cut these travel times in half to 20 minutes. Absolutely none. If Edmonton can just open it's 12.6 km street running LRT for a travel time of 19 minutes using the same low-floor trains, there is no reason why Toronto cannot at least match that on an 10.5 km line. If they say they can't, that is, at best, a bad excuse and at worse, a bold faced lie.
 
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Bojaxs said:
It's quite damning that people are now suggesting it'll be faster to get to Mt. Dennis from Scarborough by riding line 2 to Dundas West and then take the UP from Bloor GO. Probably even quicker once the tunnel connecting Dundas W. with Bloor GO is complete.
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Quite damning? Kennedy to Mount Dennis and Kennedy to Bloor GO are almost exactly the same distance - about 18.5 km. We never expected that Line 5 would be as quick to go 18.5 km as Line 2, with the frequent stops on the outdoor section.

The UP travel time from Bloor to Weston is only 4 minutes!

I really doubt there are many people travelling from Kennedy to Mount Dennis in one go.
 
nfitz said:
Quite damning? Kennedy to Mount Dennis and Kennedy to Bloor GO are almost exactly the same distance - about 18.5 km. We never expected that Line 5 would be as quick to go 18.5 km as Line 2, with the frequent stops on the outdoor section.

The UP travel time from Bloor to Weston is only 4 minutes!

I really doubt there are many people travelling from Kennedy to Mount Dennis in one go.
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Once they complete that direct passage at Dundas West to Bloor GO, it’s an alternative way to get around the city.

You’re right, I doubt people will travel like that. Perhaps if it’s Mount Dennis to the Golden Miles shopping area, line 5 will still be better, especially if you’re carrying a whole bunch of stuff.
 
How long until the line east of Laird is closed and Laird to Don Mills is rebuilt, so that Don Mills and everything west (including the Eglinton West extension) is fully grade separated and east of Don Mills becomes the genesis of the Eglinton East LRT?
In theory if you had a maintenance facility in the East End, and the Ontario Line was open you could have an Eglinton East LRT running from science centre east, which would funnel traffic to and from the Ontario Line.
 
pw20 said:
How long until the line east of Laird is closed and Laird to Don Mills is rebuilt, so that Don Mills and everything west (including the Eglinton West extension) is fully grade separated and east of Don Mills becomes the genesis of the Eglinton East LRT?
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I don't know if you'd even have to close the line. The only place where automobile traffic crosses the track is at Leslie.

If you were to grade separate, I'd think the easiest thing to do is to widen the CP span over Eglinton, and keep the eastbound turning lanes for Leslie on the north side of the tracks, between the Laird and Don Valley portals.

fungus_eater said:
If Eglinton line doesnt WOW after finch, say goodbye to further LRT expansions in toronto.
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I don't see that precludes grade-separating at Leslie. Do you antipicate slow LRT service between Laird and Pearson?
 
fungus_eater said:
If Eglinton line doesnt WOW after finch, say goodbye to further LRT expansions in toronto.
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That would be a good thing. If the City can't gather the fortitude to put transit ahead of cars, then any new LRT would be a colossal waste of money and they sure won't get a nickel from Queen's Park.
 
pw20 said:
How long until the line east of Laird is closed and Laird to Don Mills is rebuilt, so that Don Mills and everything west (including the Eglinton West extension) is fully grade separated and east of Don Mills becomes the genesis of the Eglinton East LRT?
In theory if you had a maintenance facility in the East End, and the Ontario Line was open you could have an Eglinton East LRT running from science centre east, which would funnel traffic to and from the Ontario Line.
Click to expand...

That will never happen. Noone is going to fund that kind of rebuild.

You would have to rebuild the Laird to Don Mills section as a tunnel. And then, rebuild the Don Mills Stn itself, add 2 more tracks so it can serve as a terminus for both the western and the eastern line.

What would you gain?
- The eastern section doesn't become any faster
- The western section becomes a bit faster, and a bit easier to operate, but the improvements are minor
- The riders yell and scream that they lost the ability to travel across Don Mills without a transfer, basically for no gains that matter to them
- Other transit riders yell and scream that Eglinton is getting the funding twice in a row, while they are getting zilch
- And worst of all, you do not gain a lot of capacity in the western section, that is now fully grade separated. The trains can run a bit more frequently, but then you hit the next capacity bottleneck, which likely to be the size of platforms and the capacity of elevators / stairs. A tansit line designed for 10k to 13k PPHPD, does not turn into a 30k+ transit line, just because you removed one section.
 
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McGillicuddy said:
Truly. This argument that this project would be a roaring success if only the authorities had listened to reason and wisely chosen to make it significantly more complex and expensive...
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Even though the potential to screw up a driverless metro with platform screen doors is lower than a mixed grade LRT with two tunnels, I wouldn't put it past Metrolinx and the TTC to somehow screw that up as well. At least a driverless metro with PSD usually has >99% service reliability.

There is just a higher floor for automated metro than a overly complicated Line 5 with bespoke subsystems. A badly run LRT is much worse than a badly run metro.

"You learn the lesson all commuters must know immediately: when something really matters, you leave early or take an Uber, but you never rely on the TTC. [...]
In most major cities, the transit experience is reversed. Hong Kong’s Mass Transit Railway system (MTR) operates at a 99.9 per cent on-time rate; Dubai reaches 99.7 per cent; New York, even with its aging system, sits at 84 per cent. Vancouver operates around 96 per cent."
Voltz said:
Yeah, we’ve never seen slow zones in the subway, schedule bloat, lineups at terminals, operational problems, lines that never get built, etc. Such a transit paradise.
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It's disingenuous to compare a brand new LRT with a subway system up to 71 years old , when you should be comparing LRT to modern metro. The TTC's subway service reliability as well as 𝚊̶𝚕̶𝚕̶-̶𝚖̶𝚘̶𝚍̶𝚎̶* surface on-time rate of 57.98% [1] is much lower than the typical >99% for automated metro w/ PSDs. A big part of the never ending slow zones is the lack of funding to upgrade to ballastless track, as is the standard for modern metros. Penny wise pound foolish.
1765689717299.png
1. https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/07/061/ttc-buses-streetcars-subway-reliability/

*correction
 
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urbanclient said:
Even though the potential to screw up a driverless metro with platform screen doors is lower than a mixed grade LRT with two tunnels, I wouldn't put it past Metrolinx and the TTC to somehow screw that up as well. At least a driverless metro with PSD usually has >99% service reliability.

There is just a higher floor for automated metro than a overly complicated Line 5 with bespoke subsystems. A badly run LRT is much worse than a badly run metro.

"You learn the lesson all commuters must know immediately: when something really matters, you leave early or take an Uber, but you never rely on the TTC. [...]
In most major cities, the transit experience is reversed. Hong Kong’s Mass Transit Railway system (MTR) operates at a 99.9 per cent on-time rate; Dubai reaches 99.7 per cent; New York, even with its aging system, sits at 84 per cent. Vancouver operates around 96 per cent."

It's disingenuous to compare a brand new LRT with a subway system up to 71 years old , when you should be comparing LRT to modern metro. The TTC's subway service reliability as well as all-mode on-time rate of 57.98% [1] is much lower than the typical >99% for automated metro w/ PSDs. A big part of the never ending slow zones is the lack of funding to upgrade to ballastless track, as is the standard for modern metros. Penny wise pound foolish.
View attachment 7026251. https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/07/061/ttc-buses-streetcars-subway-reliability/
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Don't put too much faith in reliability as a measure. Nobody would consider the confederation line a shining beacon of success, but it usually has a 99.8% reliability rating as defined by it's contract. I'm sure Eglinton will as well, but it's likely not going to feel like it

 
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Kyle Campbell said:
Don't put too much faith in reliability as a measure. Nobody would consider the confederation line a shining beacon of success, but it usually has a 99.8% reliability rating as defined by it's contract. I'm sure Eglinton will as well, but it's likely not going to feel like it

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You're splitting hairs and missing the point of what I am saying. Of course I mean an independent third-party's definition of reliability, on-time rates, other metrics etc... I thought I didn't need to point out the obvious more than I already regularly do. Noone out here is claiming the O-Train is as reliable as the MTR or even the SkyTrain, even though different numbers from different people based on different definitions might make one believe so. Read the report linked in the CityNews article from above if you have the time. That's where the 57.98% 𝚊̶𝚕̶𝚕̶-̶𝚖̶𝚘̶𝚍̶𝚎̶ surface transit on-time rate comes from. "Guelph has the most reliable transit with an on-time score of 88%, followed by Hamilton at 82%,and Burlington, Mississauga and Waterloo at 79%. Toronto had the least reliable surface transit at 58%."

TTC's definition of subway service reliability based on headway adherence gives ~ a 1.5 to 3 minute buffer, which would be unimaginably late in Japan. For the purpose's of any useful comparison the authors are not going to blindly accept the word of each agency. Self-reported metrics are the "we've investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing" numbers.

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Transit Report Cards

With chronic congestion costing us $11B annually in lost productivity, driving talent out of our region and slowing post-pandemic recovery, transit has a critical role to play.
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ssiguy2 said:
It's called follow the money. When you control the money, you control. Full stop. It is the City that sets the fares. It is the City that runs the municipal roads. It is the City that sets the speed limits. It is the City that funds the TTC. It is the City that controls lights & signals. It is the City that controls parking. The TTC is just a division of the City that runs a certain type of vehicles on the road and that's it. The City ultimately controls EVERYTHING about the TTC. It is the City that determines whether you will close down a stop/station. If the City decides that the TTC will do this-or-that, no matter how stupid the policy may be, the TTC MUST do it whether they like it or not. This is why every issue, such as this one, has to go to Council and/or the Mayor's office in the first place. This is why St.Clair and Spadina have signal priority design but are not allowed to use them.........the City tells them they can't and the TTC has no choice to follow their dictates.

If Toronto didn't have such a two-faced, incompetent, and gutless wonder of a Mayor and Council, this would not be an issue.
Click to expand...

I call BS on this. We have one of the most pro-transit mayors in history. The city is trying everything it can, but we have a province determined to stick its nose in anything the city wants to do.

I won’t be surprised if more active transit priority hasn’t already been kiboshed by Ford behind the scenes. I guarantee there are dozens of stories like this that have been kept quiet if only because our mayor wants to keep diplomatic lines open with our bully of a Premier:

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zang said:
I call BS on this. We have one of the most pro-transit mayors in history. The city is trying everything it can, but we have a province determined to stick its nose in anything the city wants to do.

I won’t be surprised if more active transit priority hasn’t already been kiboshed by Ford behind the scenes. I guarantee there are dozens of stories like this that have been kept quiet if only because our mayor wants to keep diplomatic lines open with our bully of a Premier:

PressReader.com - Digital Newspaper & Magazine Subscriptions

Digital newsstand featuring 7000+ of the world’s most popular newspapers & magazines. Enjoy unlimited reading on up to 5 devices with 7-day free trial.
www.pressreader.com www.pressreader.com
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Source: You made it up.

Its been quite clear over the past few months that the line being slow and no active priority has been entirely on the city. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this blame shifting.
 
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