[jmi22]

I am saying that BRTs are not a replacement for LRTs, and never will be. There is no logical journey from BRT to subway that skips the LRT. LRTs are an important middle ground and can carry lots more people, in contexts where subways would be considered overbuilding for the environment, such as in the suburbs.

Very interesting, this is how the greatest transit cities in the world have/do build infrastructure right? The Grand Paris Express is going to be a 95 year project, first as a BRT to build ridership, then rebuilt as an LRT 30 years later, and then maybe as a subway 35 years after that, cuz ya know, its the suburbs. Very real method of urban structuring and growth.

 

[nfitz]

The great thing about bus lanes, is you don't have to "build" anything, you paint a lane red and maybe throw down a jersey barrier. They are quite literally a universally adopted method of transportation planning in the rest of the world, there is nothing special in the hallowed roadbeds of Toronto that make the business case for buying a can of paint not work here.

Did all that paint on the Eglinton bus lanes wash away then? This photo is from a few years ago now ... perhaps it's not very water resistant?

 

[smallspy]

Very interesting, this is how the greatest transit cities in the world have/do build infrastructure right? The Grand Paris Express is going to be a 95 year project, first as a BRT to build ridership, then rebuilt as an LRT 30 years later, and then maybe as a subway 35 years after that, cuz ya know, its the suburbs. Very real method of urban structuring and growth.

You think that the Bloor-Danforth or Yonge subways just sprang up overnight?

There are lots and lots and lots of cases throughout the world where the ridership was grown organically to the point where it necessitated a change to a higher mode of transit. Just like there were lots and lots and lots of cases where the wrong technology was shoehorned in to fit a task it is not the right one to do.

Dan

 

[zang]

You think that the Bloor-Danforth or Yonge subways just sprang up overnight?

In case anyone doesn't already know, I'd like to point out that Bloor-Danforth and Yonge were both streetcar (tram) lines before being a subway. We scaled up when needed, as we should.

There are lots and lots and lots of cases throughout the world where the ridership was grown organically to the point where it necessitated a change to a higher mode of transit. Just like there were lots and lots and lots of cases where the wrong technology was shoehorned in to fit a task it is not the right one to do.

Ironically, see the Sheppard subway line, which has twice been on the bring of being shut down permanently due to low ridership. A tram line would've sufficed.

 

[nfitz]

Ironically, see the Sheppard subway line, which has twice been on the bring of being shut down permanently due to low ridership..

It was never on the verge of shut down for low ridership. On one occasion - the decade before last - TTC tossed it out as a suggestion, simply as leverage to support a 25¢ fare increase, so that they wouldn't have to do service.

 

[Northern Light]

Ironically, see the Sheppard subway line, which has twice been on the bring of being shut down permanently due to low ridership. A tram line would've sufficed.

Except that that is rather misleading.

The line which was always intended to be Sheppard West/Dowsview to STC, with phase 1 going to Victoria Park was truncated.

Willowdale station was cut entirely.

Because of the above and not intermediate stop from Leslie to Don Mills, a competing/supplementary bus service remained, and the stations weren't even complete visually to spec, missing trackside wall finishes, custom lighting and ceiling slats in many locations.

Notwithstanding the above, the service has generally run at every 5M or so, and has been full in rush hours and moderately busy off-peak.

Certainly a subway was more than the density in place in 1988 required, however, the intent was always for the line to generate greater density over time, which, it has, in spades.

A tram line would be running service every 2 minutes and packed to the gills now.

****

In general, I favour the R.C. Harris school of infrastructure building. He didn't build Line 1, though was certainly involved in its conception, or needless to say, Line 2. But when he had the Prince Edward (Bloor) Viaduct built, he had a deck for a subway put underneath to save money in the future should a subway be needed (Danforth was a dirt road then), the City was barely 500,000 people at the time.

He also built the Water Treatment Plant that now bares his name, the design was approved when the City was a mere 300,000 people........he built it with capacity to serve 800,000.

Much cheaper to over-build somewhat (that doesn't mean run maximum service on day one) .....rather than under-built and have to re-build.

Putting the east end of Line 5 underground will be a hugely disruptive project, in addition, Eglinton will have been wrongly sized when the surface tracks are no longer required, and much more expensive to maintain.

The western side had to be delivered first in order to reach a yard.

So that's all that should have been done in phase 1. The eastern side should then have been built in 2 phases, entirely underground to Victoria Park, then on to Kennedy.

 

[JSF-1]

You think that the Bloor-Danforth or Yonge subways just sprang up overnight?

There are lots and lots and lots of cases throughout the world where the ridership was grown organically to the point where it necessitated a change to a higher mode of transit. Just like there were lots and lots and lots of cases where the wrong technology was shoehorned in to fit a task it is not the right one to do.

Dan

On the topic of this and relevant to Eglinton Avenue, this was supposed to be the intention with the original Eglinton West Subway. As part of Network 2011 Eglinton was supposed to have bus lanes installed to build ridership on the route. The actually subway itself wasn't supposed to start construction until 2011 (ironically around the time the EC started construction). However Etobicoke and York put up a stink that their subway was the last to be built and had the subway's construction pushed up to the 90's; a full 25 years before it was planned to be built. Not only did this skip the ridership building phase with the bus lanes, but it also forced Metro and the Province to truncate both the Sheppard and Eglinton Lines as they could not afford to build both in their entirety simultaneously.

 

[CityRider]

Study claims Toronto's TTC streetcars are the slowest in the world​

Thanks for the link! So as I suspected, this is just a clickbaity headline and saying that the TTC streetcars are "the slowest in the world" is based on a comparison of only 15 cities in the study which in the linked PDF is less than a dozen pages long. Clearly room for improvement, but by the admission of the study's own author they're not examining "each of the several hundred tram systems in the world". I realize people love to hate the TTC but "slowest compared to similarly sized networks in this limited study" would be more accurate.

 

[Mihairokov]

Thanks for the link! So as I suspected, this is just a clickbaity headline

BlogTO should have been your first indicator. This graph gets pushed around here every few weeks and it's incredibly tiresome to see time and time again.

 

[zang]

It was never on the verge of shut down for low ridership. On one occasion - the decade before last - TTC tossed it out as a suggestion, simply as leverage to support a 25¢ fare increase, so that they wouldn't have to do service.

“The potential cuts, which could kick in within weeks, are fallout from the defeat, for now, of Mayor David Miller's proposal for $350-million in new taxes.

The mayor denied the threat of reduced services amounts to a scare tactic. "We don't have the room to manoeuvre any more," he said.”

Toronto threatens to shut Sheppard subway

web.archive.org

That doesn't exactly sound like a “suggestion”. Especially when cities are legally barred from running deficits.

Tory’s remarks of shutdown during the pandemic was probably more of an idle threat, but the TTC has been chronically underfunded for decades. It’s not like it has a lot of room to subsidize inefficient routes., especially when ridership takes as big a hit as we got from COVID.

 

[nfitz]

“The potential cuts, which could kick in within weeks, are fallout from the defeat, for now, of Mayor David Miller's proposal for $350-million in new taxes.

I remember of course. We discussed it extensively in one the threads at the time.

And it was clear, from the discussion, that it wasn't on the verge of shutdown! It was a vague thought ... presented simultaneously with the solution of a fare rise.

Go back and read the discussion. I see no need in repeating 20-year old hysteria from the Globe.

Perhaps Covid was a different situation - lots of stuff was shut down at the peak.

 

[zang]

Notwithstanding the above, the service has generally run at every 5M or so, and has been full in rush hours and moderately busy off-peak.

Even though it only runs a four-car configuration, I’ve not once seen Line 4 with standing room only.

The entire line has a lower daily ridership (38,705) than the 29/929 Dufferin bus (40,000), and still hasn’t come close to matching projections when it was first opened. And ¾ of all the traffic on it is going to Don Mills. Basically, it appears to be servicing Fairview Mall more than locals.

Certainly a subway was more than the density in place in 1988 required, however, the intent was always for the line to generate greater density over time, which, it has, in spades.

Has it?

It was a truncated line, but it was also built on expectations that a subway magically induces density and ridership, which doesn’t always match up with reality. See; Lawrence Heights or Hogg’s Hollow

I’d be very surprised if density in the area matches the projections given in the 1990s, regardless of the condos in the area.

A tram line would be running service every 2 minutes and packed to the gills now.

The 504 King streetcar services 65,000 passengers a day. 38,000 seems trivial in comparison.

 

[ThenWhat]

The TTC has currently budgeted a lifespan of 12 years for their buses (down from the historical 18), and tracks only need to be rebuilt every 20-25 years, provided that they were built correctly in the first place.

It's nice to be an optimist. We need some realists as well.
The most recent example we have is the St Clair streetcar ROW. Opened in stages between 2007 and 2010. Shut down for maintenance from September 2023 to June 2024.

 

[nfitz]

The entire line has a lower daily ridership (38,705) than the 29/929 Dufferin bus (40,000), and still hasn’t come close to matching projections when it was first opened.

I don't recall seeing projections for just Yonge to Don Mills - only Downsview to Scarborough Centre. Do you have a link for that?

The Sheppard ridership was closer to 50,000 a day before Covid. Not quite 10,000 per km.

Bloor Danforth was about 500,000 a day on it's 26 km. Not quite 20,000 per km.

It's not that shabby! Compare to many other subway systems.

The entire Washington DC Metro is over 200 km long, and only has about 560,000 riders a day. About 3,000 per km.

Should it have been surface LRT? Probably. Is it the white elephant some pretend it is - no.

Recall what Sheppard East looked like before the subway. I'd stand at Don Mills and Eglinton changing from the 25 and heading west. And you'd look down the hill, and not only guarantee you'd see a bus coming - but normally see several coming. It was very busy at peak.

 

[zang]

I don't recall seeing projections for just Yonge to Don Mills - only Downsview to Scarborough Centre. Do you have a link for that?

I know I've seen more recent numbers, I just can't find them at the moment. However:

After opening with much fanfare, the Sheppard subway has operated reliably and with good reviews with riders. However, eleven months after the line opened, the TTC came out with a report on the line’s performance which had some disappointing numbers. Initial projections for the line called for 15 million riders, 1 million of which would be new to the TTC. Ridership figures show that, instead, the line has taken 11 million riders, only 800,000 of which are new to the TTC. The TTC blames SARS and a slightly stale economy for the lower-than-expected ridership figures.

The Sheppard Subway - Transit Toronto - Content

I'm assuming at that point, projections were for the truncated line as built.

The Sheppard ridership was closer to 50,000 a day before Covid. Not quite 10,000 per km.

Bloor Danforth was about 500,000 a day on it's 26 km. Not quite 20,000 per km.

It's not that shabby! Compare to many other subway systems.
[…]
Should it have been surface LRT? Probably. Is it the white elephant some pretend it is - no.

Considering it would barely lose less than ¼ of its ridership were the TTC to close all but Don Mills and Yonge-Sheppard Station, I wouldn't even be daring enough to call it a moderate success. It's an express route to a mall. It hasn't created the density/ridership loop that was expected.

Recall what Sheppard East looked like before the subway. I'd stand at Don Mills and Eglinton changing from the 25 and heading west. And you'd look down the hill, and not only guarantee you'd see a bus coming - but normally see several coming. It was very busy at peak.

For sure. Sheppard does double what the buses at the time did. That said, it doesn't mean a subway wasn't overkill.

We knew how to build something with a capacity between buses and subways; the Scarborough RT was originally intended (in the 1970s) to be above ground ROW, chained trams with subway-distance station spacing. They even called it LRT then. That was until the Province forced the TTC to use its UTDC-designed ICTS trains.

To this day, we still continue to believe that "if you built it, they (density) will come" applies to subways. And it just doesn't pan out like that.

A quick phone call with the folks in Montreal's STM might've reminded them that the massive creation of subway to low-density areas that they did for Expo'67, was a money-sucking albatross around their neck only finally paid off a handful of years ago.