Undead
Senior Member
I'd need to go back and check, but it's been discussed on Urban Toronto before. Certainly Parkdalian's rhetoric is divorced from reality.
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cplchanb
Senior Member
Im on the eglinton 34 bus right now.... the demographics i observe on this bus is very contrary to your claims
Undead
Senior Member
Like I said, we can wait until we dig up the source, but if we're quoting anecdotes, then I'll just cancel out your observation with mine that I see plenty of suits on line 1 when I take it.
cplchanb
Senior Member
Well.... we're talking about line 5 here on this debateabout signal priority and drivers complaining. Its pretty obvious what the demographics are. White suits on the 510 are irrelevant in this conversation.
Undead
Senior Member
From a 2023 TTC CEO report:
"of the 3.2 million average weekday boardings pre-COVID:
• 24% make less than $40K
• 23% make more than $100K
Which supports my point about plenty of middle class people using the TTC.
Another notable stat from that report which complicates the vapid "poor TTC rider, evil car user" narrative:
• 32% of TTC users did not own a car (suggesting that a supermajority of TTC users do have access to a car)
I know these are pre-COVID stats, but they still illustrate the point.
"of the 3.2 million average weekday boardings pre-COVID:
• 24% make less than $40K
• 23% make more than $100K
Which supports my point about plenty of middle class people using the TTC.
Another notable stat from that report which complicates the vapid "poor TTC rider, evil car user" narrative:
• 32% of TTC users did not own a car (suggesting that a supermajority of TTC users do have access to a car)
I know these are pre-COVID stats, but they still illustrate the point.
I didn't say anything about the 510. The point is the vapid narrative Parkdalian was pushing.
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Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Noticed when TV news reports on traffic congestion, there is usually only ONE person in each automobile, SUV, or truck doing the complaining, only the driver. They ignore that they are the ones causing the congestion. Not a chauffeur driving a passenger.
Parkdalian
Senior Member
I would argue that these stats actually prove my point, but I don't think we need to get into an argument about what constitutes "middle class" in Toronto. (40K barely pays for a 1 bedroom rental in Toronto...)
But I defer to your judgment. You are obviously correct. Signal priority is not a class-based issue. I look forward to all of the Scarborough city councillors proudly stepping up to support it on the Eglinton Crosstown, just as they have proudly supported sixplexes and homeless shelters in their neighbourhoods.
Undead
Senior Member
I don't disagree. Our over the top property market makes small change out of a $100,000 salary, which is bonkers.
But we're using the stats/definitions as they're provided for us. If we start debating the definitions, it becomes even harder, if not entirely meaningless, to discuss the rest.
And even if we accept the worst case scenario i.e. a 100k+ income required to be middle class, this still means a significant number of TTC users are middle class.
Respectfully, this sentiment is exaggerated.
The reality is probably more that the same people will alternate between being stuck in the LRT as SUVs turn left; and being those same SUV drivers blocking the LRT.
edit: I could have been more measured in my choice of words, apologies for the heat.
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ShonTron
Moderator
For the record, 'Jughandles' were originally proposed on Eglinton east of Victoria Park, and I'm one of the people who spiked that idea, because it creates a pedestrian-hostile environment.
See this post........ from 2008!
Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis
IIRC, TTC wanted a BRT on Eglinton and Subway on Sheppard. Rae instead funded a shorter subway on Sheppard and shorter subway on Eglinton. Harris actually did the right thing in cancelling Eglinton as a subway. Numbers didn't support it then and they still don't. Sadly, we never did get the...toronto.skyrisecities.com
Jughandles were also proposed on the west extension at Martin Grove, prior to the current design iteration.
https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1668610621/Images/Metrolinx/ECWE_EPR_2020_Addendum.pdf see p. 78
Martin Grove would have been one of the few places where jughandles would have made good sense in Toronto
GenerationLee
Senior Member
Hey, we're people too you know!
Steve X
Senior Member
The wealthier residences south of Eg really didn't like the idea when they first proposed it.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
That does seem the obvious answer. Once the LRT is loaded and ready to proceed through the intersection the left turn signal is delayed until the LRT proceeds through. And in these cases, after the LRT has passed and in order to reduce bottlenecks, the left turn signal can be extended to compensate for the “delay” of the LRT.
cplchanb
Senior Member
well today is the purported start of the FRD.... hopefully this is the beginning of the end of this dreaded wait... 
jmi22
Active Member
"Considering the cost of my idea is a bad faith argument"
Do you think lands taken from developers by the city during redevelopment are free? What parks, public spaces and infrastructure upgrades should *not* occur, so you can build two dozen jug handles?
Do you think the drastic widening of every single major intersection along an arterial would not increase operational costs?
Do you think the mass drop off in taxable private square footage with the handover of private land to the public would not occur and harm already skint city revenues?
For lots left un-appropriated, would their drop in value brought on by the fact they are now wrapped in blighting highway infrastructure not impact city tax roll returns on the transit project we just spent billions of dollars on?
Lastly, I would absolutely love to see you provide examples of even just a few attractive, urban boulevards with street running transit that have their street wall broken up at every intersection by a 10,000 sf jug handle. I'll save you some time, you won't, because it is akin to pushing two magnets together.
A 6264
Active Member
Yes, but... how long has it been since they started the first test runs of trains on the line?well today is the purported start of the FRD.... hopefully this is the beginning of the end of this dreaded wait...
I did a quick look at back pages of this thread, to try to find the first pictures of trains seen running. It's possible the answer is at the bottom of page 1300.