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A 6264 said:
If the goal is to try not to open everything on the same day, that's understandable. BUT, I don't know why they can't open the bus bays SOONER than the rest of the station, and put the platforms into use now, for north/south bus routes that will use a new station as an endpoint.

It's like the gripe I posted elsewhere, but I'll put the picture here, about how the BENCHES for the bus stops in front of stations must not go into use until everything else opens. The benches have been there for years, behind a fence, and we CAN'T SIT DOWN. Also note that there's a FIRE HYDRANT inaccessible behind the fence!
View attachment 662140
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The problem with that idea is that the service levels of the network post-opening are predicated on the reduction of bus service on Eglinton.

Trying to operate the post-opening bus network in concert with all of the existing bus service on Eglinton may either strain the TTC's resources to the breaking point, or may not be possible at all.

Dan
 
One would think that immediately after opening, there would be a short-term overage of buses which are no longer needed for 32/34 service. Those could simply be parked near Mount Dennis as a reserve. (Some of us remember "rotation car" assignments of PCC air-electric cars after the Line 2 opening).
I wonder what the logistics and cost would be of a partial opening where some trams are run, with buses and operators providing partial service and/or bulking out the spare board in the event of a short or long term closure. The lengthy burn-in plan assumes those bus and operator resources are not available for redeployment in the short term anyways, as the existing service has to be maintained, maybe they can be used more productively by letting some people ride the trams without any service guarantee implied..
Or, simply plan for and announce a correction period of perhaps.a month later in the year where buses return and the LRT is shut down to correct any defects that emerge. Set expectations that the system is iffy and just let whatever happens happen.
At this point, I have to admit that it's getting silly to deny passengers the use of a system that's running most days. The embarrassment in Ottawa was having not gone into commissioning with eyes wide open, and denying the need for fixes.... maybe TTC can be more enlightened.

- Paul
 
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smallspy said:
The problem with that idea is that the service levels of the network post-opening are predicated on the reduction of bus service on Eglinton.

Trying to operate the post-opening bus network in concert with all of the existing bus service on Eglinton may either strain the TTC's resources to the breaking point, or may not be possible at all.

Dan
Click to expand...
Not trying to disagree so much as clarify...

I was trying to be careful to suggest a minimal change that would not put a strain on bus services, if that's what we're talking about. How about if we limit the idea to diverting the end of any bus route from a current postiton of a bus stop on the street that's right next to a new station, to a bus bay in the station, so this would be no significant change to the route. Not talking about changing the whole system to what it will be in future when the LRT opens, just doing a few routes here and there where it makes virtually no difference.

You might say, well, that creates an extra cost of opening up and operating the station itself. To which I would say, (a) that's a completely different argument, and (b) yes, that's the point, I'm suggesting putting the stations into use ahead of time, partly because it may force the TTC to work a little harder in getting the LRT finished, and partly to phase in the opening by not trying to do everything at once on LRT opening day.

I do realize I'm beating the ol' dead horse, because I'm making a suggestion that would have made more sense to do years ago.

At the same time, when I see that the stations STILL aren't ready to open, because finishing touches are missing, it almost looks as though the TTC finds the whole project so daunting, that they can't bring themselves to finish up the things that they CAN finish now. We can tell that they sort of realize this, because from last spring up to the end of last year, they were running the escalators full time, day and night, at all the new stations, as though the stations were ready to open in a week or so. It was sort of the right idea, if they had applied it to something else, but at the same time, it was an absurd thing to do.
 
A 6264 said:
You might say, well, that creates an extra cost of opening up and operating the station itself. To which I would say, (a) that's a completely different argument, and (b) yes, that's the point, I'm suggesting putting the stations into use ahead of time, partly because it may force the TTC to work a little harder in getting the LRT finished,
Click to expand...
To clarify, responsibility and operation of all parts of the Crosstown are still under control of the Crosslinx construction team (except for train operations as of last week). The TTC has no real input over what happens in those parts of the stations until the project is formally handed over. Even if they wanted that to change, the construction contract is with Metrolinx, and Crosslinx previously had issues with the TTC getting too involved.

If anybody, it would be Metrolinx opting not to request this in a contract amendment because they're hoping the nightmare will be over soon.

A 6264 said:
We can tell that they sort of realize this, because from last spring up to the end of last year, they were running the escalators full time, day and night, at all the new stations, as though the stations were ready to open in a week or so. It was sort of the right idea, if they had applied it to something else, but at the same time, it was an absurd thing to do.
Click to expand...
I've gone through Eglinton Station and walked by Laird a couple times this week, and they're still running the escalators. Seems like they're working on them too, the Eglinton ones at Line 1 platform level have gotten less squeaky in the past few weeks.
 
crs1026 said:
One would think that immediately after opening, there would be a short-term overage of buses which are no longer needed for 32/34 service.
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That isn't the case. Basically all of the service on the various Eglinton routes will be reallocated to other services. There is only going to be a very small net reduction in service hours.

This is why the TTC had to run all sorts of extra service earlier this year - they had hired additional drivers for all of the service that is to be operated but weren't able to allocate the crews to the LRT side as yet.

A 6264 said:
Not trying to disagree so much as clarify...

I was trying to be careful to suggest a minimal change that would not put a strain on bus services, if that's what we're talking about. How about if we limit the idea to diverting the end of any bus route from a current postiton of a bus stop on the street that's right next to a new station, to a bus bay in the station, so this would be no significant change to the route. Not talking about changing the whole system to what it will be in future when the LRT opens, just doing a few routes here and there where it makes virtually no difference.
Click to expand...
To a degree, they're already doing that - a lot of stops have already been moved to their final locations.

As for the stations themselves, that's much more problematic. In many cases a long detour is required to access them from the route (look at Caledonia Station, for instance), which means that substantial additional running time is needed. One of the reasons for the reallocation of service is to help account for this additional running time, meaning that the headways at worst will stay the same as they are today. Doing what you are suggesting without the additional service means that the headways on the route will have to be worse for at least that board period.

A 6264 said:
You might say, well, that creates an extra cost of opening up and operating the station itself. To which I would say, (a) that's a completely different argument, and (b) yes, that's the point, I'm suggesting putting the stations into use ahead of time, partly because it may force the TTC to work a little harder in getting the LRT finished, and partly to phase in the opening by not trying to do everything at once on LRT opening day.
Click to expand...
The TTC is not the one holding things up here. "Forcing" them to do what you suggest is actually going to be detrimental to the people using the service.

A 6264 said:
I do realize I'm beating the ol' dead horse, because I'm making a suggestion that would have made more sense to do years ago.
Click to expand...
I don't think that it's an inherently bad idea at all. But I also think that you are not necessarily aware of all of the moving parts here, nor of the repercussions of the actions that you are suggesting.

A 6264 said:
At the same time, when I see that the stations STILL aren't ready to open, because finishing touches are missing, it almost looks as though the TTC finds the whole project so daunting, that they can't bring themselves to finish up the things that they CAN finish now. We can tell that they sort of realize this, because from last spring up to the end of last year, they were running the escalators full time, day and night, at all the new stations, as though the stations were ready to open in a week or so. It was sort of the right idea, if they had applied it to something else, but at the same time, it was an absurd thing to do.
Click to expand...
You seem to be under the mistaken understanding that the TTC has anything to do with the stations. They don't. They are getting handed all of the infrastructure when it's done - it's not on them to do any of the remaining work, that's on Crosslinx, the contractor.

Once the TTC is handed the proverbial keys, they could open the stations up immediately if they wanted to.

Dan
 
smallspy said:
That isn't the case. Basically all of the service on the various Eglinton routes will be reallocated to other services. There is only going to be a very small net reduction in service hours.

This is why the TTC had to run all sorts of extra service earlier this year - they had hired additional drivers for all of the service that is to be operated but weren't able to allocate the crews to the LRT side as yet.


To a degree, they're already doing that - a lot of stops have already been moved to their final locations.

As for the stations themselves, that's much more problematic. In many cases a long detour is required to access them from the route (look at Caledonia Station, for instance), which means that substantial additional running time is needed. One of the reasons for the reallocation of service is to help account for this additional running time, meaning that the headways at worst will stay the same as they are today. Doing what you are suggesting without the additional service means that the headways on the route will have to be worse for at least that board period.


The TTC is not the one holding things up here. "Forcing" them to do what you suggest is actually going to be detrimental to the people using the service.


I don't think that it's an inherently bad idea at all. But I also think that you are not necessarily aware of all of the moving parts here, nor of the repercussions of the actions that you are suggesting.


You seem to be under the mistaken understanding that the TTC has anything to do with the stations. They don't. They are getting handed all of the infrastructure when it's done - it's not on them to do any of the remaining work, that's on Crosslinx, the contractor.

Once the TTC is handed the proverbial keys, they could open the stations up immediately if they wanted to.

Dan
Click to expand...
A big detour I'm aware of are the buses using Mt. Dennis Station
1751143347196.png

A 89 WESTON or 989 WESTON EXPRESS bus has to go along Eglinton Avenue West, Keelesdale Road, Photography Drive before getting to its northbound or southbound bus bay, and then returning. Not so good for passengers who do not want to transfer to Line 5. So we can expect people getting off at a corner at Eglinton & Weston to walk across the intersection to get on another bus to continue their trip. I can expect to see them getting on the same bus to continue their trip because of a poor headway between buses on the same route.

Ditto for the 935 JANE EXPRESS or 35 JANE/27 JANE SOUTH bus.
 
ThenWhat said:
Adil Shamji, MPP, is proposing a petition to the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:
Petition to demand action and accountability on the Eglinton LRT.
The text is available from his office. I expect it will be on his web site some time soon.
Click to expand...
Which will likely get voted down since Shamji is a Liberal. :(
 
Monarch Butterfly said:
A big detour I'm aware of are the buses using Mt. Dennis StationView attachment 662317
A 89 WESTON or 989 WESTON EXPRESS bus has to go along Eglinton Avenue West, Keelesdale Road, Photography Drive before getting to its northbound or southbound bus bay, and then returning. Not so good for passengers who do not want to transfer to Line 5. So we can expect people getting off at a corner at Eglinton & Weston to walk across the intersection to get on another bus to continue their trip. I can expect to see them getting on the same bus to continue their trip because of a poor headway between buses on the same route.

Ditto for the 935 JANE EXPRESS or 35 JANE/27 JANE SOUTH bus.
Click to expand...
This is always a problem with new transit hubs. They want all the buses to be in one place and expect the majority to benefit from it.

For many routes like the 32 eastbound, it'll be faster to get at Weston and walk in the station than to way for it to loop through the terminal. It's probably a longer walk from the terminal too. As with the 32 westbound and 89, you'll likely catch the bus you missed by a minute if you went to the stop at the intersection.

The 935 won't serve this station. If you are coming from downtown and taking the 35, 89 and 989, you'll probably use line 5 instead of line 2 to avoid these excessive looping time. If you want to take a bus from Eglinton/Jane to Eglinton/Keele, your 10 minute ride will double to 20 minutes. That's what happen when Kennedy Station opened in 1980, taking the 34 from Eglinton/Midland to Eglinton/Birchmount went from 10 minute to 20-25 min.
 
Steve X said:
This is always a problem with new transit hubs. They want all the buses to be in one place and expect the majority to benefit from it.

For many routes like the 32 eastbound, it'll be faster to get at Weston and walk in the station than to way for it to loop through the terminal. It's probably a longer walk from the terminal too. As with the 32 westbound and 89, you'll likely catch the bus you missed by a minute if you went to the stop at the intersection.

The 935 won't serve this station. If you are coming from downtown and taking the 35, 89 and 989, you'll probably use line 5 instead of line 2 to avoid these excessive looping time. If you want to take a bus from Eglinton/Jane to Eglinton/Keele, your 10 minute ride will double to 20 minutes. That's what happen when Kennedy Station opened in 1980, taking the 34 from Eglinton/Midland to Eglinton/Birchmount went from 10 minute to 20-25 min.
Click to expand...
Would like to see the definite, carved in concrete, "alleged" bus route routing for all the bus routes that would terminate and/or serve the Line 5 stations. The routing can still change before whenever Line 5 opens. With "Don Valley Station" instead of "Science Centre Station" for example to indicate it is up-to-date.
1751202740823.png
 
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