[Cyrobyte]

Would it be so bad to just embrace duplicate station names, the exercise in avoiding it is just going to get harder and harder over the years, and names will become more and more obscure historical references

New York, Chicago and Paris seem to do fine with duplicates, although Chicago's duplicates on the same line is a bridge to far in my books.

They definitely should embrace duplicate station names.

 

[robmausser]

Yes the Crosstown moniker was dropped though I cannot speak to the latter.

 

[ARG1]

Would it be so bad to just embrace duplicate station names, the exercise in avoiding it is just going to get harder and harder over the years, and names will become more and more obscure historical references

New York, Chicago and Paris seem to do fine with duplicates, although Chicago's duplicates on the same line is a bridge to far in my books.

Strongly disagree. NYC's subway system can often be pretty confusing for those not familiar with the system or the city. Heck, even in Toronto its not uncommon to find confused tourists at Dundas Station trying to get to the airport because they confused it for Dundas West. If you need to have duplicate station names, they should at least be walking distance from each other (see: Canary Wharf in London).

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Strongly disagree. NYC's subway system can often be pretty confusing for those not familiar with the system or the city. Heck, even in Toronto its not uncommon to find confused tourists at Dundas Station trying to get to the airport because they confused it for Dundas West. If you need to have duplicate station names, they should at least be walking distance from each other (see: Canary Wharf in London).

I feel like in the NYC case, it might be a bit more about the interlining than the station name where people get confused

I'm just saying that trying to avoid duplicates can create as much confusion as what you were trying to avoid. It's hardly a unique problem to the GTA

Ottawa's system isn't huge, yet still has already hit duplicate name issues. Originally the station at Heron and Bronson was called "Confederation Heights", as to not confuse with Heron Transitway station 400m away. It was technically the name for the neighborhood, but not well known, but okayish. Then when the Confederation line was built they needed another name as line didn't pass anywhere near there. Bronson doesn't work as it's on an overpass above the station with no access. They considered Brookfield, but that's not the street it's on. So instead they named it Mooney's Bay, which is the name for the adjacent neighborhood, but most Ottawans think the actual bay when they hear that, which is over 1 km away.

WIth Metrolinx building lines crossing the region you're going to get this situation over and over again.
.
There's a fairly simple solution though, you can number stations like they do in Asia, in which case the names are less important

 

[CapitalSeven]

Please don't take the Ottawa example as a sensible process. For no good reason - in no way was a new name needed - they changed the station name from the neighborhood it is exactly in the centre of to a place it's not even a reasonable walk to.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

Please don't take the Ottawa example as a sensible process. For no good reason - in no way was a new name needed - they changed the station name from the neighborhood it is exactly in the centre of to a place it's not even a reasonable walk to.

It's not sensible. I'm just saying Metrolinx, like OC Transpo is going through contortions to avoid name duplication, but Metrolinx will probably end up making even more zany decisions than Ottawa as it's going to hit the issue far more often.

Actually, given future Ottawa lines will also be built by Metrolinx, any naming practice in the GTA will probably be imposed in Ottawa too

Assuming Shephard west happens, that's when this issue will really come to the forefront, as you'll have a lot of twisting to avoid duplicating names on Line 5

 

[sche]

Would it be so bad to just embrace duplicate station names, the exercise in avoiding it is just going to get harder and harder over the years, and names will become more and more obscure historical references

New York, Chicago and Paris seem to do fine with duplicates, although Chicago's duplicates on the same line is a bridge to far in my books.

Totally agree. The whole business of obsessing over naming conventions is a bit nerdy and pedantic in my view. It leans to overthinking and unnecessary perfectionism. Very much like railcar paint schemes, locomotive horn selection, and GO cabcar spotting.

The most important things to appreciate about station naming are
a) any naming protocol is inherently likely to have contradictions and logical inconsistencies, that defy solution, so good is good enough - there is no perfect answer
b) real users especially those with regular repeat routes quickly learn and grow accustomed to odd place names that have no intuitive meaning, so arbitrary place names mostly work fine
c) real tourists don't memorize naming conventions, nor does the naming convention from the last city they visited assist them when visiting the next city - so they mostly do know how to read maps and figure things out on their phones
d) place naming decisionmaking is a gold mine for high priced consulting, usually with only marginal value added, so while irresistible to ineffective bureaucracies like ML, is something best avoided

- Paul

Paris has no duplicates - they always have at least different prefixes or suffixes, or the "duplicate" stations are interchange stations.

I agree that the naming conventions are pointless to obsess over, but I do think that duplicate station names, especially of stations which are far apart, are too confusing for infrequent users and should be avoided. IMO having suffixes or prefixes to differentiate them is good enough (e.g. in Paris: Nanterre - La Folie, Nanterre - Préfecture, Nanterre - Université, Nanterre - Ville); trying to avoid these makes it too difficult to come up with names.

Duplicate station names cause problems like this:

Worse than the fact that it's impossible to tell which 125 St station is showing up, only three 125 St subway stations show up for each search query, when there are in fact four different stations called 125 St! (Two of the search results in the second image are Subway restaurants)

 

[crs1026]

I agree that the naming conventions are pointless to obsess over, but I do think that duplicate station names, especially of stations which are far apart, are too confusing for infrequent users and should be avoided. IMO having suffixes or prefixes to differentiate them is good enough (e.g. in Paris: Nanterre - La Folie, Nanterre - Préfecture, Nanterre - Université, Nanterre - Ville); trying to avoid these makes it too difficult to come up with names.

I agree, duplicate names should be avoided. Anyone who uses transit more than once appreciates that prefixes and suffixes matter - ie Ealing Broadway and West Ealing are different stations. But if a street name or district only appears once on the network, so much the better. Which is why I am happy with any combination of traditional, historical, or ersatz place names so long as they are unique.

- Paul

 

[SubHuman]

... even in Toronto its not uncommon to find confused tourists at Dundas Station trying to get to the airport because they confused it for Dundas West.

Just outside Dundas West TTC station once a guy asked me "Is that the Eaton Centre?" when looking the entrance to the Crossways mini-mall across the road. He just looked more confused when I told him he needed to take the subway or 505 streetcar to downtown to get to the Eaton Centre. It didn't dawn on me until after I had walked away a couple of minutes later that he must have just gotten off the subway at the wrong 'Dundas' station, likely not knowing there are two of them.
Also, at the UPX/GO Bloor station exit that leads into the FreshCo/Shoppers parking lot, I've walked past people pulling suitcases asking someone else about how to get to their hotel. Since I don't think there's a hotel anywhere near there, I assume they likely mistakenly thought they were at the Bloor TTC station (or maybe Dundas?).

 

[Jonny5]

Strongly disagree. NYC's subway system can often be pretty confusing for those not familiar with the system or the city. Heck, even in Toronto its not uncommon to find confused tourists at Dundas Station trying to get to the airport because they confused it for Dundas West. If you need to have duplicate station names, they should at least be walking distance from each other (see: Canary Wharf in London).

I really feel like this problem is on those people.
If you don't know where to go you can simply open your mouth and ask someone.
Too many people simply don't do this, or try to rely on apps that generally provide poor information.
Just ask someone, it takes seconds and save you an hour.

 

[SubHuman]

I really feel like this problem is on those people...
Just ask someone, it takes seconds and save you an hour.

When you're in a place for the first time where you don't speak much of the language, it can be easier to get confused.

 

[dullturtle06]

I really feel like this problem is on those people.
If you don't know where to go you can simply open your mouth and ask someone.
Too many people simply don't do this, or try to rely on apps that generally provide poor information.
Just ask someone, it takes seconds and save you an hour.

If your wayfinding system relies on people asking directions, there is a big issue.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

Then there's the Eglinton West LRT extension: Martin Grove, Kipling-Eglinton, Islington-Eglinton, Royal York-Eglinton, and Jane-Eglinton.

But that's another thread ( https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/toronto-eglinton-line-5-crosstown-west-extension-m-s-metrolinx.28144/ )

At least on the Finch West LRT stops, there's only one nearly duplicate (Jane and Finch)...

At least Finch West Line 7 gets first dibs on "Martin Grove".

 

[junctionist]

I really feel like this problem is on those people.
If you don't know where to go you can simply open your mouth and ask someone.
Too many people simply don't do this, or try to rely on apps that generally provide poor information.
Just ask someone, it takes seconds and save you an hour.

You could ask the booth employees at subway stations. They'll tell you everythjing yij netd tp kpjw

 

[IsaacKhouzam]

Paris has no duplicates - they always have at least different prefixes or suffixes, or the "duplicate" stations are interchange stations.

I agree that the naming conventions are pointless to obsess over, but I do think that duplicate station names, especially of stations which are far apart, are too confusing for infrequent users and should be avoided. IMO having suffixes or prefixes to differentiate them is good enough (e.g. in Paris: Nanterre - La Folie, Nanterre - Préfecture, Nanterre - Université, Nanterre - Ville); trying to avoid these makes it too difficult to come up with names.

Duplicate station names cause problems like this:
View attachment 648197View attachment 648198
Worse than the fact that it's impossible to tell which 125 St station is showing up, only three 125 St subway stations show up for each search query, when there are in fact four different stations called 125 St! (Two of the search results in the second image are Subway restaurants)

I think this example misses the fact that this is not how New Yorkers interact with the subway system. A subway station here isn’t thought of as a destination but as a point on a network—like an intersection on the road network. Stations don’t really have names in the same way they do in Canadian systems; the “name,” such as it is, is merely a description of where the station is. You’d never get confused about which 125th street station to go to because you’d be thinking of it in the context of the line you were on. Just as it wouldn’t be confusing to, say, direct someone to take the 501 streetcar to Yonge, it isn’t confusing to tell someone to take the A train to 125th street.

I’d much prefer we followed a similar approach in Toronto vs coming up with unique “destination” station names every time a potential conflict arises. If I’m travelling along Eglinton and I come to a Bathurst Station there should be no confusion—I’m at Bathurst and Eglinton.