[nfitz]

So $10.2BN for a 3 station suburban extension that could’ve been entirely elevated and lead to demolishing an existing rapid transit line - do we think this is in the running for the worst value transportation project ever constructed in North America? I’m struggling to think of anything else in Canada at least.

Entirely elevated? It's worse than that

I remind you that the plan TTC approved around 2006 would have cost $190 million. Using 20 years of consumer price indexing (which is flawed - should use construction price indexing), that $190 million would have cost $293 million in $2026. And would have been complete long before the Pan-Am games.

 

[junctionist]

Entirely elevated? It's worse than that

I remind you that the plan TTC approved around 2006 would have cost $190 million. Using 20 years of consumer price indexing (which is flawed - should use construction price indexing), that $190 million would have cost $293 million in $2026. And would have been complete long before the Pan-Am games.

At some point since then, the construction industry figured out that it could hose a lot more money out of the government, private businesses, and small home owners.

 

[nfitz]

The SRT was hard to connect with at Kennedy, noisy, and prone to failure in the winter. Now, a dense part of the suburbs with a lot of transit ridership is getting a fast, weather-proof, and comfortable subway extension with stations in better locations than under a bridge.

The SRT was hard to connect with at Kennedy? ... and yet so much faster to get to Scarborough Centre from the Danforth than it is now.

Easier than changing from Line 1 to Line 2 at Spadina. Or from Line 2 to MiWay at Kipling. And just wait to find out how long it takes to change from Ontario Line to Line 1 at Queen station - I think the change in elevation there from the Line 1 to Ontario line platforms is much more than it was from Line 2 to the Scarborough RT platforms at Kennedy.

And then ... the new Line 2 doesn't even hit most of the existing stations. The only station that is having a new station at the same location is McCowan. There isn't even a station at Scarborough Centre! The new "Scarborough Centre" station is on the EAST side of McCowan Road, 400 metres the old entrance to Scarborough Centre. And from what I can see, not inside connection for almost 150 metres. That's not going to be warm on day one. Though by the time it finally opens in 2040 or so, perhaps they've have built something between the new station and the mall.

At some point since then, the construction industry figured out that it could hose a lot more money out of the government, private businesses, and small home owners.

Or we elected governments that were prepared to be hosed. No shocker that one of the Scarborough councillors has been caught taking bribes and another MPP candidate selection appears to involve payouts to voters.

 

[Voltz]

The SRT was hard to connect with at Kennedy, noisy, and prone to failure in the winter. Now, a dense part of the suburbs with a lot of transit ridership is getting a fast, weather-proof, and comfortable subway extension with stations in better locations than under a bridge.

The connection at Kennedy was two escalators, going down they were right next to each other, going up could have been improved with another conveniently placed escalator or two. The LRT rebuild was to have the platform at Kennedy moved to the mezzanine level, a transfer similar to St George station.

What's the cost premium running at now? $6 Billion and counting? And a 15+ year delay? Many years of buses for a shorter line? Hardly worth it.

 

[nfitz]

What's the cost premium running at now? $6 Billion and counting? And a 15+ year delay? Many years of buses for a shorter line? Hardly worth it.

Especially as one of the justifications for choosing subway over the LRT, is that they could avoid having to close down SRT during subway construction.

I hope whoever wrote that fiction was terminated.

 

[81-717]

and yet so much faster to get to Scarborough Centre from the Danforth than it is now.

But probably not faster than the SSE will be, unless it has built-in RSZs from the start

Or from Line 1 to MiWay at Kipling.

Sounds as bad as transferring from line 2 to YRT at Finch

 

[smallspy]

As I understand it, that's not true. TRs are GoA2 currently. They actually have a cab and enclosed area dedicated to the driver; that in itself doesn't mean TR's are not GoA4 capable, but it's an indicator that they lack automation that is reliable enough to run without an attendant.

The TRs could be made to be GoA4 capable, as much of the important equipment required for it already existed on the equipment.
- zero speed sensors - yes
- doors open sensors - yes
- doors closed sensors - yes

(there is other equipment necessary to enable GoA4, but those ones are quite important for the process of opening and closing the doors.)

Do those plug into the current ATO equipment today? No, but that's because they didn't need to design them to. But they could be made to do so.

GoA3 driverless still have attendants in practice. It's not as simple as upgrading everything except the trains, to go from Line 1-like to fully driverless.

Correct. And there are two main reasons why the choice is made to operate with GoA3 versus GoA4:
- to ease the requirements necessary for the safety of the ROW - basically to manage any evacuation of the train
- to ease the minds of the passengers, who may be wary of completely unattended operation of the system.

At most, the Toronto Rockets are capable of DTO from what I've found. But that doesn't necessarily mean certified for GoA3.
https://cdn.ttc.ca/-/media/Project/...odifyTorontoRocketTRTrainsetstoAccommodat.pdf

As far as I know there has never been a case where rolling stock goes from only GoA2 capable to GoA4 without modifications. If a train started out as GoA4 capable, but initially operated only in GoA2/3 modes, that's another story (e.g. Shanghai Line 10, Delhi Pink and Magenta lines).

I don't know of any, either.

But again, it's not the train that's the problem. It's the ROW and environment that the train runs in.

I'm not sure if saying Toronto Rockets are GoA4 capable is what you meant. Either way, I think we agree that the cost difference between new GoA2 and GoA4 trains is small.

Is the cost difference to the train and signalling system vastly different between GoA2 and GoA4? I don't think it is.

But that ignores the huge cost that is required to bring the rest of the system up to that capability. There's a reason why the number of lines that have been upgraded from no automation to GoA4 can be counted on one hand.

Vast majority of rolling stock being built is at least GoA2 capable now. Whereas TRs were retrofitted to reach that capability.

That's not true at all, it entirely depends on who is doing the ordering and for where.

There's no sense in ordering that level of capability and complexity if you're not going to use it.

Dan

 

[Westey]

The connection at Kennedy was two escalators, going down they were right next to each other, going up could have been improved with another conveniently placed escalator or two. The LRT rebuild was to have the platform at Kennedy moved to the mezzanine level, a transfer similar to St George station.

What's the cost premium running at now? $6 Billion and counting? And a 15+ year delay? Many years of buses for a shorter line? Hardly worth it.

But the better plan was to connect STR (edit - SRT) to the elevated Eglinton Line, which could take you to Ontario Line. That way the transfer would not have been mandatory.

 

[Voltz]

But the better plan was to connect STR to the elevated Eglinton Line, which could take you to Ontario Line. That way the transfer would not have been mandatory.

Maybe that would have been better than what we ended up with, but the SSE was not the alternative choice at the time, and I don't think that plan would have extended the SRT. Also the transfer from OL to Line 5 won't be quick.

 

[urbanclient]

That's not true at all, it entirely depends on who is doing the ordering and for where.

I'll stand by what I said. I said "vast majority of rolling stock being built" (i.e. rolling stock on the assembly line) is at least GoA2 capable. That doesn't necessarily mean all the lines are GoA2 capable or operating at that GoA on opening day.

Whether one considers that 75% or 98% is what determines the trueness of that claim. As an aside, the 4 Metrolinx LRT lines all have CBTC that enables GoA2 capability, despite not really needing it.

Back to metros: I'll admit, I haven't counted every single upcoming metro line to be totally certain, but for the lines on the horizon, "vast majority" I have read about have trains that are GoA2 capable.

Consider this, China now has ~50% and growing, of all route km in the world. That should be a hint. Another would be, how many new metros are being built without CBTC? CBTC doesn't necessarily mean GoA2, but in most fully grade separated metro cases they are synonymous. Certainly enough to say the rolling stock is GoA2 capable.

There's a reason why the number of lines that have been upgraded from no automation to GoA4 can be counted on one hand.

There have been more than I think you are aware of. Or one hand is hyperbole.

But going from GoA0 or even 1 to 4 is a bit of a contrived argument. It's normal for lines to be GoA2 capable from the outset now. An upgrade to GoA4 is relatively easy and common, especially if PSDs are already installed.

GoA0/1 going from fixed block to moving block CBTC and achieving GoA2 is common too.

But that ignores the huge cost that is required to bring the rest of the system up to that capability.

I am aware of the "huge" cost, that's more or less what I said in my original post. (My main oversight? is) I didn't make an exhaustive list of what it takes to achieve GoA4 or "driverless trains" (it's not just the trains LOL). I think the costs are "huge" for Toronto, especially given the projected PSD retrofit prices, asinine compared to even Japan or Australia.

It's not necessary, but I think it would make procuring driverless trains a tad bit easier. Among other small potential benefits.

Main thing is driverless trains, which I think would be too expensive and disruptive to implement given the costs of today. ATC, PSDs, GoA4 driverless trains.

I'm hoping construction to enable driverless will be quicker and less disruptive with smarter robots or something.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Perhaps if they used twin boring machines one of them wouldn’t get stuck or maybe neither would have gotten stuck since they’re both smaller.

 

[Aplus23]

They should add a station at Danforth and Eglinton now that the timeline is unknown

 

[syn]

The SRT was hard to connect with at Kennedy? ... and yet so much faster to get to Scarborough Centre from the Danforth than it is now.

Easier than changing from Line 1 to Line 2 at Spadina. Or from Line 2 to MiWay at Kipling. And just wait to find out how long it takes to change from Ontario Line to Line 1 at Queen station - I think the change in elevation there from the Line 1 to Ontario line platforms is much more than it was from Line 2 to the Scarborough RT platforms at Kennedy.

And then ... the new Line 2 doesn't even hit most of the existing stations. The only station that is having a new station at the same location is McCowan. There isn't even a station at Scarborough Centre! The new "Scarborough Centre" station is on the EAST side of McCowan Road, 400 metres the old entrance to Scarborough Centre. And from what I can see, not inside connection for almost 150 metres. That's not going to be warm on day one. Though by the time it finally opens in 2040 or so, perhaps they've have built something between the new station and the mall.

Or we elected governments that were prepared to be hosed. No shocker that one of the Scarborough councillors has been caught taking bribes and another MPP candidate selection appears to involve payouts to voters.

I never found the SRT hard to connect with. Was going up one level ideal? Definitely not. But I found it frequently fast and relatively reliable.

A challenge that could've been addressed far more affordably than a full extension.

I hope they can get back on schedule - these three stations are just the start of what's needed.

 

[A 6264]

I never found the SRT hard to connect with. Was going up one level ideal? Definitely not. But I found it frequently fast and relatively reliable.

A challenge that could've been addressed far more affordably than a full extension.

I hope they can get back on schedule - these three stations are just the start of what's needed.

Going between line 2 and SRT was 2 levels, not 1.
- Mr. Pedantic

For whatever reason, I thought it was charming to have a transit station with a train platform in the attic.

 

[81-717]

Going between line 2 and SRT was 2 levels, not 1.
- Mr. Pedantic

At least* 2, possibly more, if you count the mezzanine between the L2 platform & street level (at least there was an express escalator that bypassed it entirely and took you straight from street level to L2 level).