[2323]

If we see an "adjacent corridor" I think it'll more likely be the Finch Hydro corridor than some old schemes revived through Central Toronto.

The Finch Hydro Corridor could easily accomodate an 8-lane expressway from Mississauga through to Pickering with some reconfigured hydro towers. Could probably limit exits to minimize impact on adjacent areas and even cut-and-cover it in sensitive spots.

Sounds good in concept, but would be an extremely tough sell to the neighbourhoods surrounding it. It would be quite jarring to go from a relatively busy MUP to an 8 lane freeway. Not to mention it would totally decimate any street it has an interchange with both traffic wise, pedestrian wise, and would probably have to have very tight footprints.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Sounds good in concept, but would be an extremely tough sell to the neighbourhoods surrounding it. It would be quite jarring to go from a relatively busy MUP to an 8 lane freeway. Not to mention it would totally decimate any street it has an interchange with both traffic wise, pedestrian wise, and would probably have to have very tight footprints.

Oh absolutely it would be a tough sell. I think the only way you could do it would be to trench it / do heavy noise mitigation and largely avoid local interchanges to mitigate traffic impacts on local streets. Even then people aren't going to be happy - which is probably a big reason Ford is pushing a Tunnel as it then 'has no impacts'.

 

[afransen]

Again, not that simple.

If there are no jobs close by that meets your skills, you will have to travel to where they can be found. If your company moves, you have an option to stay with the company and doing commute depending on your position, money and how long you been with them. The other option is to look around your area or within a shorter travel time for another company.

Money plays a big part on what option you choose as well your family needs.

If there no jobs in your area that meets your skills, can you afford to take a lower paying job and will you be happy doing the work??

Don't people understand that congested highways are a cost, too?

Why do people think there is a god-given right to be able to use a highway to drive through the largest city in Canada at 8 am for zero cost, all so they can earn a few thousand dollars more at a job on the other side of the city? If you can earn so much more that it is worth working 60 km away from home instead of 20, then you should be happy to pay a toll that will let you make that drive in 30 minutes instead of 90.

 

[drum118]

Don't people understand that congested highways are a cost, too?

Why do people think there is a god-given right to be able to use a highway to drive through the largest city in Canada at 8 am for zero cost, all so they can earn a few thousand dollars more at a job on the other side of the city? If you can earn so much more that it is worth working 60 km away from home instead of 20, then you should be happy to pay a toll that will let you make that drive in 30 minutes instead of 90.

How do you know if all these drivers passing through Toronto at 8 am are going to work on the other side?? I would be one of those drivers a over a decade ago when I was part owner of a company when I spent most my time in Toronto looking after projects and drumming up business. I did buy a house in Whitby under construction to cut down my 60-90 minute trip to the office a few days of the week until I walk away from the partnership and never close the sale of the new house.

I have pass through many cities at peak time to get to where I want to go in the first place for various reasons and why should I or others be forced to sit some place so we are not fighting that peak time traffic mess like other drivers and wasting our travel time?? What about long distance transportation of Goods?

Again, not as simple as you think it should be.

 

[afransen]

How do you know if all these drivers passing through Toronto at 8 am are going to work on the other side?? I would be one of those drivers a over a decade ago when I was part owner of a company when I spent most my time in Toronto looking after projects and drumming up business. I did buy a house in Whitby under construction to cut down my 60-90 minute trip to the office a few days of the week until I walk away from the partnership and never close the sale of the new house.

I have pass through many cities at peak time to get to where I want to go in the first place for various reasons and why should I or others be forced to sit some place so we are not fighting that peak time traffic mess like other drivers and wasting our travel time?? What about long distance transportation of Goods?

Again, not as simple as you think it should be.

It is simple. If you are driving 10 km to work, maybe you would think twice about hopping on the 401 if it would only save you 3 minutes and cost you $3 or $4. If you are driving through the city on a non-commuting trip, perhaps you find it worth the cost to travel at 8 am, or perhaps you would choose to drive through at 10 or 11 am and save a few bucks with off-peak tolls.

There is no god-given right to free roadways, especially when they are oversubscribed. It is not in the public interest to have very expensive limited access freeway infrastructure regularly operating at <40kph. Highways move fewer vehicles per hour at 40 kph than if they are moving closer to the design speed. It makes carpooling and express buses ineffective. It means goods movement is delayed and companies need more trucks, drivers, and buffer time to move goods around the region.

It is well-known in traffic engineering that you make congestion worse if you have a path that is overwhelmingly better than alternatives, and you actually reduce network capacity. You can sometimes solve congestion by reducing connectivity in specific areas to shift flows to other paths. The other option is to place a monetary cost instead of a time cost on the oversubscribed option. Toronto is not unique. Whenever congestion pricing schemes have been put in place, congestion has improved, and drivers are usually in favour.

 

[Northern Light]

Not that simple.

Unless some can afford a place near where they work, they have to live some place where they can afforded to do so. Then if someone did live near where they work, they could be forced to travel future due to the company downsizing, close the doors or relocate to where they now have to drive to. People don't want to up root their children life style and friends so someone can be closer to their work now than before.

I been up rooted a number of times as a child as well doing so with my children beyond my control.

And these issues don't exist for people who take transit? I don't get the argument.

 

[Northern Light]

All the transit projects in the world won't solve the traffic congestion issues. So the reality is expanding the expressway to match the growing population is a must.

I disagree completely, totally and utterly.

Its not an ideological thing I'm a car owner and driver; its a math thing.

Forget, for a moment the enormous costs associated w/this idea.

There's a completely different problem that would need addressing.

So for argument's sake, you just increased throughput on the 401 by 50%.....

But a portion of that traffic is going on to the DVP which is jammed and not getting any wider. You made the DVP commute even worse and longer, but that will also back up on to the 401.

The same could be said of the 427 or the Allen, or of any interchange road. Victoria Park Avenue is 4 lanes south of the 401, if 50% more cars cars seek to exit there, VP will grind to a halt.

You can't treat an expressway in isolation as if the cars appear directly from someone's driveway and disappear at the other end directly into a parking garage without spending time on other roads.

Any 401 project of this type, be it a tunnel or a new corridor immediately necessitates road widening here, there and everywhere. The cost would be at least as large as the highway project itself.

****

But wait....so you've chopped down all the trees on every street that intersects the highway, and bought and torn down all the buildings on one side of those roads and widened all those roads..at a cost of tens of billions of dollars, conservatively.....

Where is everyone parking? Oh right, there aren't the spare spaces for that.....billions more on new parking garages.....

Its not a workable, realistic solution.

 

[Undead]

If the Finch hydro corridor is to be repurposed, it should be for higher order transit, not a highway.

 

[2323]

I disagree completely, totally and utterly.

Its not an ideological thing I'm a car owner and driver; its a math thing.

Forget, for a moment the enormous costs associated w/this idea.

There's a completely different problem that would need addressing.

So for argument's sake, you just increased throughput on the 401 by 50%.....

But a portion of that traffic is doing on to the DVP which is jammed and not getting any wider. You made the DVP commuter even worse and longer, but that will also back up on to the 401.

The same could be said of the 427 or the Allen, or of any interchange road. Victoria Park Avenue is 4 lanes south of the 401, if 50% more cars cars seek to exit there, VP will grind to a halt.

You can't treat an expressway in isolation as if the cars appear directly from someone's driveway and disappear at the other end directly into a parking garage without spending time on other roads.

Any 401 project of this type, be it a tunnel or a new corridor immediately necessitates road widening here, there and everyone. The cost would at least as large as the highway project itself.

****

But wait....so you've chopped down all the trees on every street that intersects the highway, and bought and torn down all the buildings on one side of those roads and widened all those roads..at a cost of tens of billions of dollars, conservatively.....

Where is everyone parking? Oh right, there aren't the spare spaces for that.....billions more on new parking garages.....

Its not a workable, realistic solution.

This is why if a 401 tunnel were to ever happen, the sole purpose of it should be to bypass Toronto completely- a super express of some sort with maybe a few ramps here and there for emergency access only. It would be totally useless (as you just explained) if it just funneled people back onto the same congested city streets.

 

[Civdis]

If the Finch hydro corridor is to be repurposed, it should be for higher order transit, not a highway.

How about both

 

[Undead]

How about both

Nope

 

[Civdis]

Nope

Well I guess that is that lol. Appreciate your clarity on the topic even if I disagree.

 

[lenaitch]

If the Finch hydro corridor is to be repurposed, it should be for higher order transit, not a highway.

I believe it was consider for the Finch LRT bur rejected for a number of reasons.

Trying to put an 8-lane highway in a corridor that is nominally 100m wide and shared with multiple, high voltage power circuits plus pipelines would require a very expensive shoe-horn.

This is why if a 401 tunnel were to ever happen, the sole purpose of it should be to bypass Toronto completely- a super express of some sort with maybe a few ramps here and there for emergency access only. It would be totally useless (as you just explained) if it just funneled people back onto the same congested city streets.

I know it has its own thread but I can't believe anyone still considers this a viable project. As originally floated (now walked back somewhat), it would be about 55km long. I couldn't find any mention of lanes but unless it is multiple, why even bother. The longest highway tunnel in the world is about 25km long and carries two lanes.

If they tried to cut and cover, it would massively disruptive to existing traffic. If they tried to bore it, how many bores would it take? I'm not sure the technology exists for that. A single tunnel of that length would be a Dante-esque environment for anyone who had to work there, or stuck there if there was a collision. I'm not sure they could mitigate the environment to meet OHSA guidelines. A tire fire would be toxic, let alone a Lithium battery fire. Even a stop-and-go crawl would be problematic unless the ventilation system was set to 'wind tunnel'. Obviously, dangerous goods would have to be banned and probably motorcycles. This is a Springfield-type monorail.

 

[innsertnamehere]

I believe it was consider for the Finch LRT bur rejected for a number of reasons.

Trying to put an 8-lane highway in a corridor that is nominally 100m wide and shared with multiple, high voltage power circuits plus pipelines would require a very expensive shoe-horn.


I know it has its own thread but I can't believe anyone still considers this a viable project. As originally floated (now walked back somewhat), it would be about 55km long. I couldn't find any mention of lanes but unless it is multiple, why even bother. The longest highway tunnel in the world is about 25km long and carries two lanes.

If they tried to cut and cover, it would massively disruptive to existing traffic. If they tried to bore it, how many bores would it take? I'm not sure the technology exists for that. A single tunnel of that length would be a Dante-esque environment for anyone who had to work there, or stuck there if there was a collision. I'm not sure they could mitigate the environment to meet OHSA guidelines. A tire fire would be toxic, let alone a Lithium battery fire. Even a stop-and-go crawl would be problematic unless the ventilation system was set to 'wind tunnel'. Obviously, dangerous goods would have to be banned and probably motorcycles. This is a Springfield-type monorail.

A lot wrong here.

1. An 8-lane highway has about a 50 metre cross section, and can go narrower if you are willing to sacrifice shoulder width. I-90 in Boston fits 8 lanes of freeway traffic in a ~32 metre wide trench. There should theoretically be lots of options to realign and consolidate hydro towers to accommodate that, with enough money involved.

2. I've said this multiple times on this board - Sydney, NSW has recently opened a ~22km, 6-8 lane tunneled expressway and is expanding it to a network of over 40km of tunneled expressway. The 401 Tunnel is undoubtedly.. ambitious. It's almost certainly a waste of money (especially if it ends up as a 55km tunnel), but it''s not a "Springfield type monorail". There is global precedent. Expressway tunnels would also probably be dug with Sequential Excavation, like how Sydney and the Ottawa LRT was completed, which allows wider tunnel shapes to accommodate multiple vehicle lanes.

I think we should wait and see what is actually proposed before passing judgement.. If it's as absurd as people are making it out to be, sure, we can issue that judgement at that time. But let's see how creative MTO can get.

 

[Undead]

Well I guess that is that lol. Appreciate your clarity on the topic even if I disagree.

Well there's a lot of evidence why a transit line is a much better option than another highway in Toronto's current content. All of that has been shared in these forums for years. It's not really a matter of opinion at this point.