[nfitz]

This whole VIA-CN feud over the 5-car Venture sets got me wondering... How will this affect the Northlander's 3-car sets on CN trackage?

It would effect it negatively, that for sure.

I don't know how the immediate solution to this is not to order CN to fix their crossings, and put staff at each and every crossing to flag traffic in case the CN equipment fails again.

 

[lenaitch]

I would agree, however, that there could be a lot more Metrolinx/GO could do to coordinate with Ontario Northland and regional transit agencies like Simcoe Linx and Niagara Transit, even marking connections at stops and on timetables.

One problem is that for most of its service, the Northlander will touch very few other transit services. The only Simcoe County stop is Washago (which isn't currently served by Linx). The District of Muskoka might be able to tweak its Corridor 11 service (without having considered any other implications) to align with the southbound train but the northbound Northlander will be will after Muskoka's service hours. It is a similar situation for both Bracebridge and Hunstville transit. I suppose if there is enough noise after the Northlander is back in service the municipalities might be encouraged to adjust or add to their service.

 

[smallspy]

This whole VIA-CN feud over the 5-car Venture sets got me wondering... How will this affect the Northlander's 3-car sets on CN trackage?

Most of the CN trackage that ONR operates on doesn't use predictive circuits, so it won't affect it at all.

Some of the south end of the run might use predictive circuits, but it's so little that it will only add up to a minute or two in terms of extra time - especially once you consider that the zone speeds are only about 60mph.

Dan

 

[nfitz]

Most of the CN trackage that ONR operates on doesn't use predictive circuits, so it won't affect it at all.

So why use predictive circuits east of Toronto?

 

[dowlingm]

So why use predictive circuits east of Toronto?

Higher differentials between freight and passenger speeds, surely? If you time crossings on the upper Newmarket sub based on passenger, it’s not like that causes a long wait vs when freight goes through

 

[Garuda]

You are right of course, but I think even the Northland bus requires you to book in advance, and you can't simply reschedule last minute.

Also, how much does the average person in Toronto know about those buses? For cottage country, it would be great to see GO promote a seasonal bus route from Barrie to Gravenhurst, perhaps in partnership with Ontario Northland. That way, people could just show up and tap. Plus, the schedules would be visible on GO's website.

Heck, regular GO service to Orilla would be nice. Muskoka's Corridor 11 bus should at the very least meet up with GO Transit buses.

I think a better question is that Orilla should build a central bus terminal downtown by the waterfront to bring all the bus services into a central location.

 

[nfitz]

Higher differentials between freight and passenger speeds, surely?

So VIA has horrendous delays so as not to inconvenience a car driver.

The car driver would only get hit by a delay at one crossing - not every crossing!

 

[micheal_can]

I tend to agree. Muskoka cottaging isn't backcountry tripping or shlepping a family load of kit to a day at Wasaga Beach. I don't see people jumping off in Huntsville heading for a week on the land in Algonquin. The service might be attractive to visiting friends/family or a family member joining the rest of their family already in situ as well resort packages. I do vaguely recall that, in the latter throes of the previous Northlander, they adjusted the timing that did result in some ridership. Regardless, I don't think it will be huge.

On problem with the proposed schedule in the Business Case (which is all we have to go on) is the times aren't great.

NB

Grhst: 2045
Bbdg: 2100
Htsvl: 2135

SB

Htsvl: 0750
Bbdg: 0825
Grhst: 0840

If someone's work schedule allows, they might be able to handle an early Monday start to get into Union at 1055, but I doubt a resort-goer is going to pay for an extra night only to get out at the crack-o-dawn.

The new schedule is more about people of the north able to go to Toronto and leave the same day without the need for a hotel. Due to this, it is horrible for cottage goers.However, as pointed out, even if it was timed for them, most cottage goers wouldn't want to use it

One problem is that for most of its service, the Northlander will touch very few other transit services. The only Simcoe County stop is Washago (which isn't currently served by Linx). The District of Muskoka might be able to tweak its Corridor 11 service (without having considered any other implications) to align with the southbound train but the northbound Northlander will be will after Muskoka's service hours. It is a similar situation for both Bracebridge and Hunstville transit. I suppose if there is enough noise after the Northlander is back in service the municipalities might be encouraged to adjust or add to their service.

Even the ones north of those, which are Timmins, Temiskaming Shores and North Bay, it is not going to arrive and depart during their operating hours. It is designed around driving to the station and not needing the hotel in Toronto, This is what people of the north have said they want. This is a north centric plan. We shall see if that was a good plan for the province to do.

 

[lenaitch]

Heck, regular GO service to Orilla would be nice. Muskoka's Corridor 11 bus should at the very least meet up with GO Transit buses.

I think a better question is that Orilla should build a central bus terminal downtown by the waterfront to bring all the bus services into a central location.

GO doesn't serve Orillia although ON bus does. I guess if Muskoka taxpayers felt they should extend their Corridor 11 service to Barrie, they could.

A central bus 'location' makes more sense than a 'facility', particularly if services are relatively infrequent. It would be nice if ON found a better stopping location but they need a willing host. The city transit uses a central intersection as a meeting point for its routes. The city taxpayers would have to determine if they want to own and operate a facility. ON buses used to stop at the former train station but the city sold it (I don't think city transit used it). We're not talking thousands of people 24/7.

 

[smallspy]

So why use predictive circuits east of Toronto?

The rules state that the lights at a level crossing must be on at least 22 seconds before the train arrives at the crossing and that the gates need to start going down 15 seconds.

A train operating at 100mph will be a far greater distance away from the crossing than a train operating at 60mph when that 22 second countdown needs to begin, so the predictive circuits are able to read the speed of the train and time the activation of the safety features appropriately.

In a lot of places where the differential between potential speeds is far less, they will use standardized detection equipment with the fixed circuits placed the appropriate distance to allow the safety features to activate in time for the maximum speed. This is why you can find locations where the lights will activate far before a train arrives at the crossing because it is running at far lower than the track speed (or is accelerating back up to track speed).

Dan

 

[bearcat]

The rules state that the lights at a level crossing must be on at least 22 seconds before the train arrives at the crossing and that the gates need to start going down 15 seconds.

A train operating at 100mph will be a far greater distance away from the crossing than a train operating at 60mph when that 22 second countdown needs to begin, so the predictive circuits are able to read the speed of the train and time the activation of the safety features appropriately.

In a lot of places where the differential between potential speeds is far less, they will use standardized detection equipment with the fixed circuits placed the appropriate distance to allow the safety features to activate in time for the maximum speed. This is why you can find locations where the lights will activate far before a train arrives at the crossing because it is running at far lower than the track speed (or is accelerating back up to track speed).

Dan

So a solution to the current VIA issue it to have the freight trains run at 100 mph so predictive circuits are not needed?

 

[Garuda]

GO doesn't serve Orillia although ON bus does. I guess if Muskoka taxpayers felt they should extend their Corridor 11 service to Barrie, they could.

A central bus 'location' makes more sense than a 'facility', particularly if services are relatively infrequent. It would be nice if ON found a better stopping location but they need a willing host. The city transit uses a central intersection as a meeting point for its routes. The city taxpayers would have to determine if they want to own and operate a facility. ON buses used to stop at the former train station but the city sold it (I don't think city transit used it). We're not talking thousands of people 24/7.

If GO can offer a meandering Six Nations - Brantford - Aldershot train meet service then they absolutely can offer a similar Barrie - Georgian College - Orilla - Rama - Washago bus

I don’t know much about Orilla but a central location is a good stop gap. Near the Waterfront Centre seems like a good location. Something for GO / ON / and regional services can all meet at.

I’m a little disappointed that GO have offers buses extending from Barrie to the hinterlands the same way Aldershot and Oshawa serve as a convergence point.

Not everyone on the Northlander will be heading to Toronto so having a connecting GO bus would be a nice connection to Barrie and along the 400 corridor.

 

[micheal_can]

If GO can offer a meandering Six Nations - Brantford - Aldershot train meet service then they absolutely can offer a similar Barrie - Georgian College - Orilla - Rama - Washago bus

I don’t know much about Orilla but a central location is a good stop gap. Near the Waterfront Centre seems like a good location. Something for GO / ON / and regional services can all meet at.

I’m a little disappointed that GO have offers buses extending from Barrie to the hinterlands the same way Aldershot and Oshawa serve as a convergence point.

Not everyone on the Northlander will be heading to Toronto so having a connecting GO bus would be a nice connection to Barrie and along the 400 corridor.

I have always thought the GO buses should extend out further than the train and be for building demand to extend the trains. The challenge though with Orillia is you cannot get there by train. To go down that rabbit hole is well into fantasyland. Saying that, An Oriliia express bus to Allendale would make sense.

 

[nfitz]

The rules state that the lights at a level crossing must be on at least 22 seconds before the train arrives at the crossing and that the gates need to start going down 15 seconds.

A train operating at 100mph will be a far greater distance away from the crossing than a train operating at 60mph when that 22 second countdown needs to begin, so the predictive circuits are able to read the speed of the train and time the activation of the safety features appropriately.

In a lot of places where the differential between potential speeds is far less, they will use standardized detection equipment with the fixed circuits placed the appropriate distance to allow the safety features to activate in time for the maximum speed. This is why you can find locations where the lights will activate far before a train arrives at the crossing because it is running at far lower than the track speed (or is accelerating back up to track speed).

Dan

So you close the crossing early for slow freight trains. Big woop.

Average driver would encounter this no more than once a day. Currently average VIA train encounters the issue ... how many times a trip? A dozen? More?

 

[dowlingm]

So you close the crossing early for slow freight trains. Big woop.

Average driver would encounter this no more than once a day. Currently average VIA train encounters the issue ... how many times a trip? A dozen? More?

Human beings interact with the crossings and equipment can fail. You can’t just fiddle with the rules, increasing the chances of people taking chances, and say it will be okay on the day

2013 Ottawa bus–train crash - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org