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It's hard to compare over longer periods, because of changes in reporting and categorizing. But the one thing that has always been well reported is murder. And it's been well documented that this peaked in the mid 1970s. It was much lower by 1998 - which is your starting point.
To your point, and this was well reported by mainstream outlets when StatsCan released the numbers. Stopping at 2013 entirely misses the upward trend since then.

November 2023: "Canada’s homicide rate is at the highest level in 30 years"
To say it's declined in 2023 and 2024, the last two years with reported stats, would in fact, be missing the bigger picture. There is good reason why crime is perceived to be worse now than 10 years ago throughout Canada, even if some stats show slight declines in the last two years. It's not just homicide.

"National homicide rate increases for fourth consecutive year [...] The homicide rate increased 8% from 2.08 homicides per 100,000 population in 2021 to 2.25 homicides per 100,000 population in 2022. This was the highest rate since 1992."
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/230727/dq230727b-eng.htm

Think about other stats, like those specific to Toronto, including the crime indices I graphed above. Those indices show a consistent increase in every recorded year since 2021, and a general upward trend since 2014, which goes against @zang 's narrative that crime is down recently.

Clearance rates in Toronto are down too, which means more cases are left unsolved.

So for some stats, crime is up in both the long- and short-term.

The general public is much more likely to notice violent crime is up, that car thefts are up (even if there is a slight decline recently), and disruptive homeless is up on the TTC.

If one cherrypicks data like this and dismiss people's lived experiences as fear mongering, bigotry, or conspiratorial conservative yearning for harsher criminal penalties, then that completely misses the evidence that crime is in fact, up in many ways that matter. And I'm not referring to you @nfitz . I'm referring to the person who thinks there is a Fordian conspiracy to micromanage and ruin Toronto's transit to the point of preventing TSP improvements.

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Should we be happy that homicide rates are now slightly higher than the early 2000s?
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Are we more likely to remember what crime was like in the 1990s or since 2013?

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I'm just reflecting on the idea that 2000–2014 was a unique blissful period and that pre-2000 was just as chaotic as post-2014, rather than being equally blissful. Like, we're talking about the 1980s/1990s, not the 1940s.
I don't remember people saying that 2000 to 2014 was blissful and peaceful on the crime front, compared to pre-2000. The whole crime obsession goes back to the 1980s in my recollection.

What do you remember hearing back in 2000?

To your point, and this was well reported by mainstream outlets when StatsCan released the numbers.
Indeed it was ... in 2013, 2014, 2015 ..... 2025. I 'd put money on there being a news story in 2026!

Stopping at 2013 entirely misses the upward trend since then.
You'd already provided the post-2013 graphs. It was the 1960s data that extends the graph.

To say it's declined in 2023 and 2024, the last two years with reported stats, would in fact, be missing the bigger picture.
The bigger picture that its been declining since the 1980s? Yes it does.

But also, looking at the Toronto numbers it's way down in almost all categories in 2025. And the (annualized) homicide rate for 2026 is about half what it was at this time last year in 2026 ... (murders in 2026, so annualized 18 a year, divided by 3,300,000 is homicide rate of 0.55 per 100,000 -- but for some reason, murders increase in the summer and fall, with a lot in December ... beath the Christmas rush I guess .... 4 months is too short).

Think about other stats, like those specific to Toronto, including the crime indices I graphed above. Those indices show a consistent increase in every recorded year since 2021, and a general upward trend since 2014, which goes against @zang 's narrative that crime is down recently.
Zang is 100% correct. Your graphs look pretty flat to me - and certainly lower than recent years in the 1980s and 1990s where it was actually hgh. It's hard to take the hysteria about some of the recent Covid years too seriously when the paranoia about crime was similar 15 years ago. Do you not remember all the hysteria during the Harper era?

Clearance rates in Toronto are down too, which means more cases are left unsolved.
How many decades have we been hearing that story. Clearance rates for the previous year are ALWAYS down for major crime, because it takes months to years to clear it! As the years pass, it increases.

Looking at the graphs, it all looks very flat to down in all categories except violent crime. And we all know that the reporting rate of sexual assault has significantly increased. As has auto theft that no one has graphed (though down a lot in 2025 in Toronto, but still high).

With the massive increase in auto thefts in recent years, I'm surprised the crime severity index IS as flat as it is!

The general public is much more likely to notice violent crime is up, that car thefts are up (even if there is a slight decline recently), and disruptive homeless is up on the TTC.
The general public is prone to media hysteria, and those who spread it. We shouldn't be spreading it, and cherry-picking data by not starting back in the 1950s, when I think we can all agree that crime was lower. Yeah, there was a spike in some crime rates about 3 to 8 years ago compared to the mid 2010s. But nothing like what we saw in the 1970s and 1980s, or even 1990s. (except auto thefts).

That said - I have no problem with this action by the Ford government. But what are his motives ... the more he can hide drug issues and homelessness, the better it is for his associates in organized crime - who I'm sure he still has from the days when he was a mid-level drug-dealer (and kidnapper .... LOL!)
 
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I don't remember people saying that 2000 to 2014 was blissful and peaceful on the crime front, compared to pre-2000. The whole crime obsession goes back to the 1980s in my recollection.
It sure felt blissful & peaceful (and untouchable) in Toronto back then.

What do you remember hearing back in 2000?
I was in kindergarten, so...

Again, not saying there’s a connection, but the whole world (including Toronto) seems to have gone to shit soon after something happened in 2013/2014.
 
I don't think the reference was to the average napping commuter, or even drunk asleep in their seat. But to the people spread out sleeping for hours over entire 4-person benches, or lying on the floor.
Again, that should be a chargeable offence?

Yes, remove them from the premises, but give them a criminal record for it? That was the implication.

We’ve spent decades putting social programs to help the homeless on life support. Now we forcibly remove them from parks, have taken away safe sites and somehow believe that what will work is just making everything harder for them. Instead of you know, all the things proven to help them like greater health care, stable housing and treatment programs.

What type of bigotry are you implying here? Anti-narcoleptism?
Bigotry towards the homeless.
Crime rates have been dropping for decades. But I don't think there's been any drop in homelessness on the TTC.
No, but there’s a lot of fearmongering about the homeless being on the TTC.
If anything there seems to be a lot more than a decade ago, and even two decades ago.
I agree. But it’s all across society and not just the TTC. Rates for “hidden homeless” have jumped dramatically since the pandemic and we’re currently dealing with both federal and provincial governments who seem to believe austerity is the path forward when people have so much less than what they used to have.

It’s insane that this passes for good stewardship.

There's been times that it's a daily affair seeing someone asleep on the back seat of a streetcar. Two decades ago the operator would have toss them, because they'd not paid their fare.
Did we have POP on streetcars 20 years ago?

Do you think it's improved compared to two decades ago?
No, but our homeless population has jumped, so I’d expect to see higher numbers everywhere. We can’t just pretend this is a TTC problem though. And arresting the homeless isn’t going to solve anything.
 
Not sure if this is intentional, but cherrypicking the last 1-2 years ignores the longer term trend shown above:
The good news is that crime fell again in 2025 in Toronto, in most categories - especially in Auto Theft.

If this lawyer's article is correct, it's way down in Toronto ... except for some reason theft over $5,000 ... presumably they count that different than auto theft.


edit at 9:45 pm, - TPS is now reporting there were 45 homicides in 2025 - so that would make the 2025 rate about 1.5 not 1.4. However I used a population of 3,000,000 off the top of my head, and Ontario is reporting about 3,300,000 in 2024 - which would make it 1.36).

Violent crime is up about 30% since 2013, this holds mostly true for urban areas across Canada. Yes, Toronto does tend to be one of the safest cities in Canada. But we're not debating relative safety compared to other cities, but whether or not crime is up.

Whether it's higher or lower 40, 50 years ago has little to no impact on public perception.

If you think comparing mid-to-late 20th century stats to the present is more representative of public perception, we can agree to disagree.

I think people notice violent crime, car theft, disruptive homelessness worsening in the last 10 years. They don't notice when reported Youth Criminal Justice Act violations have plummeted 90% since 2013. Or that reported drug crime is down 70% due to marijuana legalization, among other reasons.

Disruptive homelessness is subjective, but homelessness has increased by a lot compared to 10 years ago, e.g. the homeless rate has nearly tripled in Hamilton.

Nobody alive today has a strong perception or memory of how bad crime was in the 1980s, which are stereotyped as being a crime-ridden, crack-ridden era, fairly or not. Citing stats from back then or earlier ignores the last 10 to 20 years on many fronts.

On auto theft:

Yes, auto theft is down, but 2023 was an all-time peak, we're still seeing car theft rates nearly double that of 10 years ago.

When one considers how expensive cars are now, and the decline in car ownership rates, the problem is even worse than it appears.

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CMA numbers are worse than City of Toronto. I assume due to more cars parked outdoors in the suburbs e.g. Halton, Peel etc.

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Assault is up 27% since 2014 (City of Toronto open data only goes back to 2014).
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Look, crime is down /s:
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City of Toronto crime stats:
https://data.tps.ca/pages/open-data
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1710015201

Other reading:

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Crime is down, oh wait: "Claims costs had increased for insurers between 2018 and 2023 nationally by 254 per cent, and in Ontario, that number alone was 524 per cent,"

Indeed it was ... in 2013, 2014, 2015 ..... 2025. I 'd put money on there being a news story in 2026!
Your satire does not disprove that that national homicide rate was at 30 year highs in 2022. It was not at 30 year highs in 2013, 14, 15 or 2025.

Nor does it address the fact that violent crime has increased a noticeable amount in the last decade or so.

But also, looking at the Toronto numbers it's way down in almost all categories in 2025. And the (annualized) homicide rate for 2026 is about half what it was at this time last year in 2026 ... (murders in 2026, so annualized 18 a year, divided by 3,300,000 is homicide rate of 0.55 per 100,000 -- but for some reason, murders increase in the summer and fall, with a lot in December ... beath the Christmas rush I guess .... 4 months is too short).
Not sure if you've worked with stats in your job day-to-day (to be fair, most people don't), but saying crime is down in 2025 and the homicide rate is down after only 4 months of 2026 is borderline meaningless. That data is insufficient to make an inference about the underlying long-run trend. It's cherrypicking very anecdotal, short-term data.

Zang is 100% correct. Your graphs look pretty flat to me
You misread the line charts, they're not flat. I'll give you percentage increases.

And in case you thought auto theft is violent crime, it's actually classed under non-violent:
Index
2013​
2024​
Increase​
% increase​
Canada - Crime Severity Index
68.92​
77.89​
+8.97
+13.0%
Canada - Violent Crime Severity Index
74.02​
99.87​
+25.85
+34.9%
Canada - Non-violent Crime Severity Index
66.92​
69.76​
+2.84
+4.2%
Toronto - Crime Severity Index
47.12​
59.35​
+12.23​
+26.0%
Toronto - Violent Crime Severity Index
67.99​
82.66​
+14.67​
+21.6%

How many decades have we been hearing that story. Clearance rates for the previous year are ALWAYS down for major crime, because it takes months to years to clear it! As the years pass, it increases.
You are slightly misinterpreting the stats. Do you think unsolved non-violent crimes from 2014 have any hope of being solved by 2024 or later? It's a different story for higher priority violent crime.
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As a tangent, conviction rates are down, and charges being withdrawn or stayed are up too.

The general public is prone to media hysteria, and those who spread it. We shouldn't be spreading it, and cherry-picking data by not starting back in the 1950s, when I think we can all agree that crime was lower.

[...] But what are his motives ... the more he can hide drug issues and homelessness, the better it is for his associates in organized crime - who I'm sure he still has from the days when he was a mid-level drug-dealer (and kidnapper .... LOL!)
I don't pay too much attention to media headlines, I look at the stats.

Going back to the '60s and '50s is even more meaningless than the '80s and '90s. Most people alive in Toronto were not born before mid 1980s. Median age in Toronto is about 40 or born 1985, 1986.

In other words, most adults in Toronto became adults in the early-mid 2000s. Graduated college or university around the '08 Great Recession.

There is no collective memory of higher crime from the mid 20th century, when more crimes went unsolved due to poor investigative techniques and forensics.
--------------------------------------------

Again, as I've shown before, there is virtually 0 enforcement of the Controlled Drugs and Substances and Liquor Acts on the TTC (even though people shouldn't be thrown in jail for minor offences to begin with).

***The proposed change hopefully empowers TTC constables to arrest, then release disruptive people outside TTC premises, at their discretion.***

What are the chances a city prosecutor would waste time pressing a provincial offences charge on a high/drunk homeless person? Someone who was probably carrying at most, a tiny amount of drugs?

Also, you won't hear me defending the morality of Ford ever.
 

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Off the crime topic, but this increase in active commercial vehicles per that graph is very visible on the streets. Working downtown I have a window seat to York Street and the queue of delivery vehicles is non-stop starting as early as 7:00 a.m. and growing by 9:00 to have 20 waiting to get into the loading bay and it stays at that level all day as those trucks idle and block one of the two lanes left on the street. The number of employees in the offices is down, paper document deliveries have become near-extinct, but we now have far more delivery vehicles parked all over the financial district all day long. I can only imagine it's people who work in these buildings requesting personal orders be sent to their office to avoid the porch pirates (note, I do this myself).
 
Going back to the '60s and '50s is even more meaningless than the '80s and '90s.
The way my mind works is that "history" ended in 1945, and everything from the 1960s (space age) onwards is all part of a single "modern era" continuous with now (the 1950s don't really fit in either category though). So that's roughly the limit of how far back I'd usually go to compare different time periods within what I think of as a single modern era. Whereas going back to the 1940s would indeed be about as meaningless as going back to the 1800s.
 
Violent crime is up about 30% since 2013, this holds mostly true for urban areas across Canada.
Which is 100% meaningless, as it incldues the reporting of sexual assault, which was grossly under reported. Remember when #MeToo became huge? It was growing, and then blew up completely in 2018. Sexual abuse reporting has significantly increased, and any bulked together violent crime numbers over an extended period of time have little meaning.

Whether it's higher or lower 40, 50 years ago has little to no impact on public perception.
Whether it's higher or lower hs little impact on public perception. Public perception is crap, and it's driven by reporting ... which has only got more paranoid and short-term since the rise of the Internet - and in the last couple of decades, social media.

If you think comparing mid-to-late 20th century stats to the present is more representative of public perception, we can agree to disagree.
I never once said that the stats show public perception.You keep doing the strawman argument technique - why? I used it to prove that perception is completely wrong.

I think people notice violent crime, car theft, disruptive homelessness worsening in the last 10 years.
They notice most of those things worsening when it doesn't worsen. The world over. Go to the UK, and outside of London, they'll tell you London is the most dangerous city in the western world, with massive murder rates and knifings. I encountered a 30ish nurse in Toronto originally from the UK (lots of time to talk spending long nights in the ICU ...) who was convinced that violent crime and murder rates in London were much, much, higher than Toronto. People are brainwashed. And we shouldn't be the ones spreading stories about a minor increase in crime rates, that's a molehill compared to the mountains of 40 to 50 years ago.

But I've never seen homelessness like this (though is it my imagination or has it improved a bit - visually at least). The world over. I've seen it pretty much every city I've been in since Covid, and signficantly higher levels than before. I'd not even noticed it before in London and Paris (though I'm sure it's there), but it was visible. In Vancouver it was much bigger. Seattle has always had a problem ... but suddenly it was everywhere. And Denver was completely shocking (though I've not been there before). Street after street after street with people living on it. Okay ... I was downtown, but then I went out to suburbia ... and it actually seemed to be worse (on the arterials at least) ... I can't imagine it was that bad before.

It's like the stories you used to hear about from people who lived through the 1930s. That's the only comparison I can make.

Disruptive homelessness is subjective, but homelessness has increased by a lot compared to 10 years ago ...
It certainly appears that way. Ancedotally, it seemed higher to me in Toronto in the early 2000s compared to my own experiences in the 1980s and 1990s. But my own perception is that it dropped from about 2005 to 2012ish. Then started to rise, before exploding in the very late 2010s or 2020 - completely dwarfing my early-mid 2000s experiences.

But Toronto isn't going to fix homelessness. Or crime. Though reducing both would have a follow-on effect on TTC.

(if Toronto did actually fix homelessness, then it would become a magnet for all those that needed such support in the rest of the province. It can be fixed, but it has to be a province-wide, if not nation-wide solution - the best the city can do is mitigate)

But what we can do is to hide it (yes, hide it ... horrors I said it), as it has hit the point on TTC where it's impacting transit ridership itself, and inreasing vehicular congestion - at least in my opinion.

Nobody alive today has a strong perception or memory of how bad crime was in the 1980s, which are stereotyped as being a crime-ridden, crack-ridden era, fairly or not.
Noe one has a strong perception or memory of how bad crime was in the 1980s? Good grief, I just threw out some cable-TV bills I found that were that old. And I haven't hit 60 yet! Why wouldn't one have a strong memory of all that (too much crack maybe ... :) )

I certainly was speaking to people 20 years ago of my grandparents generation who had very strong memories of World War II (fighting and living through bombing) in the 1940s. And only 20 years later we can't say the same of the 1980s?

Crack-ridden? In the 1980s? I don't think even recall hearing mention of crack until perhaps the late 1980s ... and even then it was mostly as a plot device in Miami Vice or it's ilk; not something you saw being smoked in the back of a streetcar! Where were you hearing about crack in the 1980s?

Yes, auto theft is down, but 2023 was an all-time peak, we're still seeing car theft rates nearly double that of 10 years ago.

When one considers how expensive cars are now, and the decline in car ownership rates, the problem is even worse than it appears.
Absolutely it's up. And a long way to go.

Car ownship rates down? Maybe a bit ... and I can't find good numbers ... but total car sales seem to increase each year - whatever reduction there is in the ownership rate is less than the population increase rate - I don't think that's a factor. But yes, it got way out of control. And I think some heavy-handed efforts would have worked wonders there too. If you get caught with a stolen car being put on your ship, ever, in a Canadian port, your company should be banned from Canadian ports. Then the shipping companies would be the ones to put a stop to it, checking every container. FFS, it's not like cocaine that you can hide anywhere ... it's a huge car! Yeah, I just hid it in the container filled with maple syrup, or under the canola seed ... :)

Ah ... that indeed may explain the increase in car thefts - it's because the streetcars are less frequent! :)

Personally I thought it was the hanging chads of late 2000 when it all started going crazy ... followed shortly afterwards by 9/11. Thinking about it more ... perhaps it was Monica Lewinsky. Or perhaps Ronald Reagan; which means then Iran, and the fall of the Shah; had the Shah not fallen, I doubt Reagan would have been elected.

Or heck, Watergate; but even that's a bit before my time ... the most I remember about Watergate is that they kept pre-empting daytime television for the boring hearings on all the USA channels, and we had no gameshows to watch :) My parents generation and Billy Joel said it was Kennedy getting shot.
 
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Again, that should be a chargeable offence?
Chargeable? It already is ... and has been for probably a century. See bylaw 1.

But no, don't charge. Kick their ass out the door, rather than having the POOs try not to wake them while they are checking fares.

No, but there’s a lot of fearmongering about the homeless being on the TTC.
Homeless? Is there? Would 99% of them even be noticed, as they go back and forth to their jobs, etc.? It's the scaringly mentally ill that's the issue. They may not even be homeless!

Did we have POP on streetcars 20 years ago?
POP came in with the articulated (ALRV) streetcars on Queen Street, not long after they were introduced in 1988/89

It was in 1990 according to this TTC document: https://cdn.ttc.ca/-/media/Project/...d/2006/July-19/Other/Proof_Of_Payment_Far.pdf
 
Which is 100% meaningless, as it incldues the reporting of sexual assault, which was grossly under reported. Remember when #MeToo became huge? It was growing, and then blew up completely in 2018. Sexual abuse reporting has significantly increased, and any bulked together violent crime numbers over an extended period of time have little meaning.
This is conjecture. Your claim is based on intuition, not evidence. We know that police-reported violent crime has increased. You attributing that to MeToo and a higher reporting rate for sexual assault requires evidence.

You would need to show that the share of all sexual assaults reported to police increased during the same period that the police-reported sexual assault rate increased.

All the stats I found instead show the opposite, even if they don't necessarily prove your theory wrong:

Source/yearReporting-rate definition / denominator
% reported to police​
Comparability and link
1999 GSS VictimizationGSS victimization sexual-assault incidents: share of self-reported sexual-assault incidents that were reported to police
22%​
Same as 2004/2009/2014/2019 GSS, Justice Canada/StatCan 78% not reported to police

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/85-002-x/85-002-x2000010-eng.pdf
2004 GSS VictimizationGSS victimization sexual-assault incidents: share of self-reported sexual-assault incidents that were reported to police
12%​
Same GSS incident-based concept; 88% not reported

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/jr14/p9.html

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/catalogue/85-002-X201500114198
2009 GSS VictimizationGSS victimization sexual-assault incidents: share of self-reported sexual-assault incidents that were reported to police
12%​
Same GSS incident-based concept; 88% not reported

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2010002/article/11340-eng.pdf
2014 GSS VictimizationGSS victimization sexual-assault incidents: share of self-reported sexual-assault incidents that were reported to police
5%​
Same broad GSS incident-based concept; StatCan explicitly says 2004 and 2014 remain comparable despite an added consent-related question

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/85-002-x/2017001/article/14842-eng.pdf
2019 GSS VictimizationGSS victimization sexual-assault incidents: share of self-reported sexual-assault incidents that came to police attention
6%​
Same broad GSS incident-based concept; comparable to 2014

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2021001/article/00014-eng.htm


Percentage reported to police:
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GSS self-reported sexual assault rates went up too:
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I could say that crime rate and severity index increases are actually higher than reported: both violent and non-violent. This is because more crime goes unreported than ever before.

And that claim would still be more plausible than yours, even if lacking wholly conclusive evidence.

GSS year​
% of victimization incidents reported to police​
1999​
37%​
2004​
34%​
2009​
31%​
2014​
31%​
2019​
29%​

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2021001/article/00014-eng.htm
 

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What really changed in 2014 which lead to crime rates going up? Particularly in Canada. And let’s not forget the U.S. is also a violent nation in the G7 and in the Western world despite being tougher on crime. And also deaths from malnutrition increased since 2015 in the U.S.
 
What really changed in 2014 which lead to crime rates going up? Particularly in Canada. And let’s not forget the U.S. is also a violent nation in the G7 and in the Western world despite being tougher on crime. And also deaths from malnutrition increased since 2015 in the U.S.
In short, the economy.

I've shown in a previous post on the Carney thread: housing stock relative to population decreased as soon as Trudeau's admin started. In other words, less housing was available per person. Housing inflation increased. Homelessness increased. Homelessness is a correlate of crime. Worsening socioeconomic conditions are correlates of crime.

Some sources show homelessness is higher in Canada than the US, which isn't surprising given the worse housing crisis up north. Comparing apples to apples, Point-in-Time counts:

"Based on population estimates from the 2021 Census, the rate of homelessness in these communities is approximately 26 people per 10,000."

"The number of people experiencing homelessness on a single night in 2024 was the highest ever recorded. A total of 771,480 people – or about 23 of every 10,000 people in the United States – experienced homelessness in an emergency shelter, safe haven, transitional housing program, or in unsheltered locations across the country."

"In 2023, the rate of police-reported violent crime continued to be lower in Canada than the United States (252 incidents per 100,000 population versus 334 incidents), though the gap between the two countries has narrowed over the last 25 years. Meanwhile, the overall rate of property crime was higher in Canada (1,995 incidents per 100,000 population versus 1,906 in the United States).

[...]

In 2023, the violent crime rate was 33% higher in the United States than in Canada (334 incidents per 100,000 population versus 252), compared with 2009, when the rate was 77% higher in the United States (406 per 100,000 in the United States versus 230 in Canada)."


"Direct comparison of overall crime rates between Canada and the United States is not possible because of differences in the number of criminal offences collected, as well as crime definitions, scoring rules and methodology. However, certain offences are measured in similar ways, making it possible to look at trends in three types of violent crime (homicide, major assault and robbery) and three types of property crime (break and enter, motor vehicle theft, and theft) across both countries."


1777975603217.png


Break and enter, or burglary, basically an economic crime:
1777975707926.png


Other reading:
 
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