[nfitz]

Instead of largely ignoring these type of situations involving mentally unsound individuals (because it's uncomfortable to discuss, or they're afraid of "stigmatizing" or offending someone?), the TTC needs to be more explicit than "harassment, safety concerns or suspicious activity" about what we should be reporting.

I'm not sure why - that's pretty all encompassing, and really does it matter if the category isn't 100% right? It's not like they send an ambulance rather than fire ...

 

[urbanclient]

First off, congratulations to your niece. Addiction is a hellish condition -- speaking from some personal experience here. One day at a time!

That being said, I fail to understand how leniency towards your niece's anti-social tendencies on public transit would have made her life better or facilitated getting clean in any way, shape, or form.



Spoken like a man lol. Not everyone is physically imposing enough to get people high off their gourd to leave them alone.

Is Ford going to enforce this?

There's no shortage of existing laws. I don't know what this changes. Unless the province is willing to go after TTC and operators/station attendants who just ignore the problem, and legalize physical removal. But I don't see them doing that.

Moving this discussion to the appropriate thread.

The nuance everyone is missing is that the Ford gov. changed the provincial law in 2025 already, they're just proposing to explicitly expand the powers to TTC special constables, even though TTC special constables already had the powers of POOs (provincial offences officers aka TTC fare inspectors). The province has no authority over federal criminal law. Proposed change linked below:

https://www.regulatoryregistry.gov.on.ca/proposal/53233

News on this proposed change:
Feb 2026: https://toronto.citynews.ca/2026/02...-ttc-constables-to-arrest-transit-drug-users/

May 2026: https://toronto.citynews.ca/2026/05...s-powers-to-arrest-on-public-transit-ontario/


I'll point to stats from a previous post as to why they're proposing more enforcement of provincial drug laws.

TTC Special Constables are limited in practice when enforcing laws. Case in point, 0 arrests, apprehensions, and/or charges for the Controlled Drugs and Substance Act for 5 years (a federal criminal law). And for the record, I generally oppose criminal charges for small time drug offences and things like "causing disturbance, indecent exhibition, loitering, etc." https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-175.html

If a homeless person is innocuously existing or normally using transit without paying, I don't mind.

However, disruptive individuals should still be removed from TTC premises.

I think constables are hesitant to charge and remove people given that no prosecutor would waste time in taking the provincial or criminal charges to court. Or do we really think the constables witnessed around a dozen trespassing incidents and 0 cases of illegal drug use?

Also, arrests have gone down even though ridership has gone up from 586 million in 2022 to 800 million in 2024. https://www.ttc.ca/transparency-and-accountability/transit-planning

Screenshot from:
https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2025/ttc/bgrd/backgroundfile-254417.pdf

 

[nfitz]

Yes, you're right, the proposed legislation is about people being caught USING drugs on transit. That isn't what I was responding to. I was responding to replies on this forum, that public transit needs to be cleaned up and all intoxicated people should be banned from using it, to keep it safe. A proposed change is about one thing, response on this forum is about a broader issue that is contrary to an important use of public transit, and I was responding to the latter only.

I thought the legislation includes new powers for special constables - not just for this one particular thing. Wouldn't that cover anything they enforce?

 

[urbanclient]

I thought the legislation includes new powers for special constables - not just for this one particular thing. Wouldn't that cover anything they enforce?

I thought the 2025 legislation already did, but apparently the law wasn't explicit enough or didn't empower special constables as much as full police officers were. I think they're going to amend it slightly since TTC special constables don't feel comfortable enough to enforce it without fully covering their derrières.

e-Laws | Ontario.ca

www.ontario.ca

 

[urbanclient]

There are no 24/7 places dedicated for the homeless in this city.

False.

https://www.toronto.ca/community-pe...less-help/shelters/#location=&lat=&lng=&zoom=

https://www.toronto.ca/community-pe...hour-respite-sites/#location=&lat=&lng=&zoom=

https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/housing-shelter/homeless-help/

https://www.toronto.ca/community-pe...es-plan-for-people-experiencing-homelessness/

Some specific examples: (not all technically offer beds for use 24/7, but all are open 24/7 for intake/wait list, other services)

Organization	Name and address	Website link
YMCA of Greater Toronto	Wagner Green YMCA / Wagner Green Youth Shelter, open 24/7, 7 Vanauley St, Toronto, ON M5T 2V9	https://www.ymcagta.org/find-a-y/wa...-wagner-green-youth-shelter-toronto-downtown/
YWCA Toronto	Davenport Women’s Shelter, open 24/7, 348 Davenport Rd, Toronto, ON M5R 1K6	https://www.ywcatoronto.org/ourprog...shelterhttps://211central.ca/record/75998359/
Covenant House Toronto	Covenant House Toronto Crisis Shelter, 24/7 crisis care, 20 Gerrard St E, Toronto, ON M5B 2P3	https://covenanthousetoronto.ca/services-for-youth/
Sistering	24-Hour Drop-In, open 24/7, 962 Bloor St W, Toronto, ON M6H 1L6	https://sistering.org/low-barrier-d...86546400/sistering-bloor-low-barrier-drop-in/
St. Felix Centre	24-Hour Respite Site, open 24/7, 69 Fraser Ave, Toronto, ON M6K 0H9	https://211central.ca/record/69800389/
Fred Victor	24-Hour Respite Program, open 24/7, 1A Strachan Ave, Toronto, ON M6K 0E1	https://www.fredvictor.org/location-information/https://211central.ca/record/71694448/
Fred Victor	Women’s 24/7 Drop-In, open 24/7, 67 Adelaide St E, Toronto, ON M5C 1K6	https://www.fredvictor.org/location-information/
Good Shepherd Ministries	Good Shepherd Centre / Overnight Shelter, 24-hour intake and bed registration, 412 Queen St E, Toronto, ON M5A 1T3	https://goodshepherd.ca/shelter-sup...sthealthline.ca/displayService.aspx?id=143879
Homes First Society	Lawrence Avenue Shelter, open 24/7, 4117 Lawrence Ave E, Toronto, ON M1E 2S2	https://homesfirst.on.ca/hf_propert.../homes-first-society-lawrence-avenue-shelter/
Homes First Society	HFS Metro Strachan Shelter, staffed 24 hours, 22 Metropolitan Rd, Toronto, ON M1R 2T6	https://211ontario.ca/service/81172474/homes-first-society-hfs-metro-strachan-shelter/

And if that's the problem[, then] taking away a safe place (instead of creating a new one for them) does absolutely nothing to help them. It just becomes a shell game of finding another place.

This is a specious argument. Just because it may be a shell game does not mean we shouldn't prevent them from disturbing transit users and driving down ridership. Nor does it preclude us from spending more to alleviate the core causes of homelessness.

The spiel from @zang and others is:

Mental asylums are evil and therefore should never be used (despite modern iterations in Nordic countries);

Involuntary treatment is inhumane/evil and therefore should never be used (despite modern use in Nordic countries);

We should build more safe injection sites;

The problem of disruptive homeless on the TTC is overblown (anyone fearful is discriminatory towards the disabled/ableist, even sexist), and even if it's not overblown, we shouldn't do anything about it because it's a "shell game". At which point we might as well relocate the homeless to the top floor offices of the financial district, since apparently disruption on the TTC is equivalent to disruption anywhere else.

And finally, the homeless are virtually always the victim.

(You don't need a keyfob to use the elevator in many downtown offices)

Again:

If a homeless person is innocuously existing or normally using transit without paying, I don't mind.

However, disruptive individuals should still be removed from TTC premises. @zang would have us believe that we're better off with anti-social behaviour on the TTC instead of elsewhere.

 

[nfitz]

Ask any woman you know if they've been sexually harassed in their lifetime, and see if you want to repeat such an asinine statement out loud.

Why are you posting this in that thread after being asked multiple time?

(and who hasn't been physically harassed on streetcars/subways or at stops/statoins in Toronto, and observing people urinating in subway stations and streetcars in rush hour, masturbation, and nudity).

Sure, 99% are quiet and you'd probably have clue they are homeless. Or are quietly inebriated (other than perhaps for the occasional dirge).

But that 1% has become a huge problem that needs a heavy hand - and I don't think it's the passengers who should be having to physically remove people.

That said, I don't think I've seen anyone actually taking drugs or smoking crack on the streetcars for a few months now.

 

[zang]

Why are you posting this in that thread after being asked multiple time?

(and who hasn't been physically harassed on streetcars/subways or at stops/statoins in Toronto, and observing people urinating in subway stations and streetcars in rush hour, masturbation, and nudity).

Never been physically harassed. Asked for money, sure. Had someone yell obscenities, sure. Not a single homeless person/drug user has ever touched my person.

But I've also seen a drunk university student urinating in the entrance at St. Patrick station. I've seen an angry business bro hit and break a backlit ad on the subway. And even though Ford's proposed legislation was solely about removing drug users, @hawc expanded their comment to include even people just sleeping on trains. Surely you noticed the creeping bigotry?

Sure, 99% are quiet and you'd probably have clue they are homeless. Or are quietly inebriated (other than perhaps for the occasional dirge).

But that 1% has become a huge problem that needs a heavy hand - and I don't think it's the passengers who should be having to physically remove people.

Sure, and I've seen that 1% being removed from subway trains. That said, @hawc's comment was specifically "How about just OFF the TTC. Charge them and release them. Just stay off the TTC. Simple." and I was directly responding to that.

Kicking people out of a train is not the same as getting the criminal justice system involved.

That said, I don't think I've seen anyone actually taking drugs or smoking crack on the streetcars for a few months now.

Nor have I. But there's an awful lot of disproportionate and calculated fearmongering going on (see dropping crime rates vs public perception). Which is part of what Ford was responding to.

 

[urbanclient]

But there's an awful lot of disproportionate and calculated fearmongering going on (see dropping crime rates vs public perception).

Several crime stats hit 15, 20, 30 year highs a few years ago, a recent slight decline (if any) misses the bigger picture.

Toronto:

"Weighted clearance rate refers to the number of criminal incidents solved by the police in the year divided by the number of criminal incidents reported in the year. [...] more serious offences are assigned a higher 'weight' than less serious offences."

Crime severity index and weighted clearance rates, Canada, provinces, territories and Census Metropolitan Areas

Crime severity index (violent, non-violent, youth) and weighted clearance rates (violent, non-violent), Canada, provinces, territories and Census Metropolitan Areas, 1998 to 2024.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

---------------------------

All of Canada:

Police reported sexual assault declined from 68 per 100,000 in 2006 to 59 in 2015. It then increased to 60 in 2016, 68 in 2017, 77 in 2018, 82 in 2019, 90 in 2021, and 92 in 2022.

Sexual assault (level 1, 2 and 3), police-reported rate, Canada, 1986 to 2022

none

www150.statcan.gc.ca

On sexual assault, particularly for victims who are women:
Stats Canada found that sexual assaults reported in 2015---2019 were less likely than those reported in 2010---2014 to result in charges (36% vs. 42%), less likely to proceed to court once charged (61% vs. 67%), and less likely to end in a guilty finding once in court (48% vs. 51%). For women and girls, who were 89% of victims, the share resulting in charges also fell, from 44% to 38%.

Criminal justice outcomes of sexual assault in Canada, 2015 to 2019

This Juristat article provides updated information on how incidents of sexual assault proceed through the criminal justice system, from police to courts. It also focuses on the characteristics of these incidents, victims, and accused persons that are associated with different outcomes at various...

www150.statcan.gc.ca

Crime Severity Indices, all of Canada:

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/250722/cg-a001-eng.htm

"National homicide rate increases for fourth consecutive year [...] The homicide rate increased 8% from 2.08 homicides per 100,000 population in 2021 to 2.25 homicides per 100,000 population in 2022. This was the highest rate since 1992."
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/230727/dq230727b-eng.htm

 

[nfitz]

Never been physically harassed. Asked for money, sure. Had someone yell obscenities, sure. Not a single homeless person/drug user has ever touched my person.

It's only happened after I've agressively verbally gone after guys propositioning young, frightened looking females.

But I've also seen a drunk university student urinating in the entrance at St. Patrick station.

That's nothing. Try the station mezzanine, or using the streetcar doors - from the inside,

And even though Ford's proposed legislation was solely about removing drug users, @hawc expanded their comment to include even people just sleeping on trains.

I don't think the reference was to the average napping commuter, or even drunk asleep in their seat. But to the people spread out sleeping for hours over entire 4-person benches, or lying on the floor.

Surely you noticed the creeping bigotry?

What type of bigotry are you implying here? Anti-narcoleptism?

Nor have I. But there's an awful lot of disproportionate and calculated fearmongering going on (see dropping crime rates vs public perception). Which is part of what Ford was responding to.

Crime rates have been dropping for decades. But I don't think there's been any drop in homelessness on the TTC.

If anything there seems to be a lot more than a decade ago, and even two decades ago.

There's been times that it's a daily affair seeing someone asleep on the back seat of a streetcar. Two decades ago the operator would have toss them, because they'd not paid their fare.

Do you think it's improved compared to two decades ago?

 

[urbanclient]

Crime rates have been dropping for decades

Yes, compared to the '80s and '90s. Resounding no, compared to a decade ago.

 

[nfitz]

Several crime stats hit 15, 20, 30 year highs a few years ago, a recent slight decline (if any) misses the bigger picture.

I think only going back 30 years ago misses the big picture.

It's hard to compare over longer periods, because of changes in reporting and categorizing. But the one thing that has always been well reported is murder. And it's been well documented that this peaked in the mid 1970s. It was much lower by 1998 - which is your starting point.

I'm not sure whey attempted homicide peaked later ... perhaps from under reporting in the 1970s?

Yes, compared to the '80s and '90s. Resounding no, compared to a decade ago.

Tough to tell without digging deep into the data. For example, sexual assult reporting has increased dramatically - so stats show more violent crime. And yeah, auto thefts. Keep in mind that crime severity is based on sentencing, and theft over $5,000 is up to 10 years in prison. So how much has car theft increased the (non-violent) crime index?

There certainly does appear to be a post-covid rise - but I don't think it's as big a deal when you look over longer time periods. The 2024 homicide rate for Canada was 1.91 - only slightly higher than a decade ago. 2025 numbers should come out in July ... but the preliminary reports I've seen suggest it's way down ... 10 to 20%!. See how 1.6 on that graph compares on the long turn. I doubt it could be higher than 1.75.

Toronto of course is lower than the Canadian average. I'm seeing numbers ranging from 37 to 42 (I don't think the official ones are out yet). If the population is 3 million (it was 3.03 million in July 2022, and probably risen since then), that's a murder rate of only 1.4. Compare to the 22 murders in Winnipeg on a population of about 850,000 - a murder rate of 2.6 ... it peaked at 6.2 in 2022!).

The good news is that crime fell again in 2025 in Toronto, in most categories - especially in Auto Theft.

If this lawyer's article is correct, it's way down in Toronto ... except for some reason theft over $5,000 ... presumably they count that different than auto theft.

Crime Rate Statistics in Toronto 2025 - Kruse Law Firm

Toronto crime statistics 2025 show dramatic drops in homicides and violent crime.

www.kruselaw.ca

edit at 9:45 pm, - TPS is now reporting there were 45 homicides in 2025 - so that would make the 2025 rate about 1.5 not 1.4. However I used a population of 3,000,000 off the top of my head, and Ontario is reporting about 3,300,000 in 2024 - which would make it 1.36).

 

[81-717]

Yes, compared to the '80s and '90s.

Not sure if that's true for Toronto specifically.

 

[Mr.Tang]

Statistics and trends may not really matter of the public at large feels like it is a problem. As part of our democratic system, politicians will try to respond. The media plays a role in this, and other actors in will try to shape political opinion - but my sense is this is driven by the real, lived experience of TTC riders (and citizens at large).

 

[nfitz]

Not sure if that's true for Toronto specifically.

In 1991 homicide peaked at 91 in Metro Toronto (population of in 1991of 2,275,000) - a murder rate of 4,0 per 100,000. Which was a bit of an outlier, it was close to 2.6 to 2.9 the year before, and murders were in that range from the mid-1970s.

As I noted above it was about 1.4 in 2025 (45 homicides 2025 in a population of about 3,300,000 in 2024). It's early days, but it's even lower in 2026, TPS is only reporting 6 homicides so far in 2026, compared to 11 at this time last year.

There's always variations - one year is almost too small a timeframe to get an accurate picture. And outliers (such as the killed by van on Yonge Street sideway rate of 0.4 in 2018).

But I never understand why the perception that crime rates have gone up in the long-term. Yeah, there's been some stuff in the last 10 years, that thankfully seems to be behind us - but we heard the same ancedotal hysteria in the early 2010s when it was so low.

I can't believe however that the homelessness problem on TTC is better now than in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s.

 

[81-717]

In 1991 homicide peaked at 91 in Metro Toronto (population of in 1991of 2,275,000) - a murder rate of 4,0 per 100,000. Which was a bit of an outlier, it was close to 2.6 to 2.9 the year before, and murders were in that range from the mid-1970s.

As I noted above it was about 1.4 in 2025 (45 homicides 2025 in a population of about 3,300,000 in 2024)

There's always variations - one year is almost too small a timeframe to get an accurate picture. And outliers (such as the killed by van on Yonge Street sideway rate of 0.4 in 2018).

But I never understand why the perception that crime rates have gone up in the long-term. Yeah, there's been some stuff in the last 10 years, that thankfully seems to be behind us - but we heard the same ancedotal hysteria in the early 2010s when it was so low.

I can't believe however that the homelessness problem on TTC is better now than in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s.

I'm just reflecting on the idea that 2000–2014 was a unique blissful period and that pre-2000 was just as chaotic as post-2014, rather than being equally blissful. Like, we're talking about the 1980s/1990s, not the 1940s.