nfitz
Superstar
Have you? Must have been in one of the TLDR sections.
That is completely and totally absurd, and not worthy of a response. I guess tells everything we need to know.
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- Thread starter Richard White
- Start date
urbanclient
Senior Member
Stay level-headed, my intuition on this was the same as yours until I looked for evidence. The evidence from Stats Canada's General Social Survey over two decades and 5 editions show the opposite of what our intuition was... even if they don't necessarily prove your theory wrong:
| Source/year | Reporting-rate definition / denominator | % reported to police | Comparability and link |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1999 GSS Victimization | GSS victimization sexual-assault incidents: share of self-reported sexual-assault incidents that were reported to police | 22% | Same as 2004/2009/2014/2019 GSS, Justice Canada/StatCan 78% not reported to police https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/85-002-x/85-002-x2000010-eng.pdf |
| 2004 GSS Victimization | GSS victimization sexual-assault incidents: share of self-reported sexual-assault incidents that were reported to police | 12% | Same GSS incident-based concept; 88% not reported https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/jr14/p9.html https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/catalogue/85-002-X201500114198 |
| 2009 GSS Victimization | GSS victimization sexual-assault incidents: share of self-reported sexual-assault incidents that were reported to police | 12% | Same GSS incident-based concept; 88% not reported https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2010002/article/11340-eng.pdf |
| 2014 GSS Victimization | GSS victimization sexual-assault incidents: share of self-reported sexual-assault incidents that were reported to police | 5% | Same broad GSS incident-based concept; StatCan explicitly says 2004 and 2014 remain comparable despite an added consent-related question "An analysis of the impact of the additional question on sexual activity where the victim was unable to consent shows that sexual assault data from the 2004 and 2014 cycles of the General Social Survey on Victimization remain comparable." https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/85-002-x/2017001/article/14842-eng.pdf |
| 2019 GSS Victimization | GSS victimization sexual-assault incidents: share of self-reported sexual-assault incidents that came to police attention | 6% | Same broad GSS incident-based concept; comparable to 2014 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2021001/article/00014-eng.htm |
Percentage reported to police:
GSS self-reported sexual assault rates went up too:
------------------------------------------------------------------
I could say that crime rate and severity index increases are actually higher than reported: both violent and non-violent. This is because more crime goes unreported than ever before.
And that claim would still be more plausible than yours, even if lacking wholly conclusive evidence.
| GSS year | % of victimization incidents reported to police |
|---|---|
| 1999 | 37% |
| 2004 | 34% |
| 2009 | 31% |
| 2014 | 31% |
| 2019 | 29% |
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article/14198/tbl/tbl01-eng.htm
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2015001/article/14241-eng.htm
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2021001/article/00014-eng.htm
urbanclient
Senior Member
If you can't be challenged on your preconceived notions, that's a you problem. Your intuition isn't the same as evidence.
Here's a wild guess to alleviate your cognitive dissonance / you not accepting the Stats Can evidence on sexual assaults: as an ever-higher part of the population becomes ethnically diverse, it's no wonder that crimes are less likely to be reported to the less diverse, predominantly white police.
Canada was less diverse in the past and the representation gap was much lower.
| Group / measure | Toronto Police Service | City of Toronto proper | Representation gap |
|---|---|---|---|
| Visible minority / racialized | 25% of TPS officers, 2018 Stats Canada | 55.7% of Toronto residents, 2021 City of Toronto | TPS officers about 30.7 percentage points lower |
| Not visible minority / non-racialized, residual category | 75% of TPS officers, 2018 | 44.3% of Toronto residents, 2021 | TPS officers about 30.7 percentage points higher |
| 2021 Census panethnic group vs. 2022 Toronto Police Service Equity & Inclusion Survey responses (responses from 2021); Values don't add up to 100% exactly | | | |
| European / White | White: 49% | European: 43.5% | TPS survey about 5.5 percentage points higher |
| European / White + Prefer not to say | White: 49% + Prefer not to say: 20% = 69% | European: 43.5% | TPS survey about 25.5 percentage points higher |
| Black | Black: 11% | Black: 9.6% | TPS survey about 1.4 percentage points higher |
| East/Southeast Asian | East/Southeast Asian: 11% | East Asian 12.73% + Southeast Asian 8.12% = 20.85% | TPS survey about 9.85 percentage points lower |
| South Asian | South Asian: 6% | South Asian: 13.96% | TPS survey about 7.96 percentage points lower |
| Middle Eastern | Middle Eastern: 2% | Middle Eastern: 4.03% | TPS survey about 2.03 percentage points lower |
| Indigenous | Indigenous: 2% | Indigenous: 0.83% | TPS survey about 1.17 percentage points higher |
| Latin American / Latinx | Latinx: 2% | Latin American: 3.35% | TPS survey about 1.35 percentage points lower |
| Other / Multiracial | Not separately shown | Other / Multiracial: 3.88% | Cannot compare directly |
"8% of police officers identified as visible minority
Individuals that identified as belonging to the visible minority population as defined by Employment Equity Act represented 22% of Canada’s population, according to the 2016 Census. In 2018, 8% of all police officers and 12% of recruits in Canada self-identified as belonging to a visible minority group.
[...]
relatively high rates of visible minority officers were reported by Toronto Police Service (25%)"
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2019001/article/00015-eng.htm
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Northern Light
Superstar
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa............
You placed that as if to imply I'm saying 'Toronto is less safe'.
But the full quote from my earlier post is....
"So I'm really not into this 'Toronto is less safe now' stuff, I don't see any hard evidence to support it, and plenty than refutes it."
To say you're taking my words out of context is to be rather gentle.
Do not do that. If you quote me, take the full sentence at the very least and make sure the context is accurately reflected.
You quoted it accurately up page in post 383
81-717
Active Member
Going back decades is meaningless, unless it's something like 9/11, a once-in-a-blue-moon world-changing event (plus the fact that it happened right after the turn of the millennium, which is itself a once-in-1000-years event). Then it is no longer meaningless to compare it with similarly world-changing events from centuries or millennia ago.
urbanclient
Senior Member
That was not my intent at all.
I thought it was clear given the context and the fact both posts were on the same page. If you yourself weren't paraphrasing me in saying 'Toronto is less safe now', then my preceding paragraph makes no sense. Anyone scrolling up or clicking the "Northern Light said:" link would see your full post.
Nonetheless, I've changed the quote to make it clear.
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Student99
Active Member
Can we talk about highway 407 terminal at night? Specifically the upper levels? What can be done here? Can't even use the washroom there; too many bodies crowded in.
nfitz
Superstar
I don't think going back only 25 years is a relevant to a thousand-year event or centuries or millennia go.
The critical start of the current era, where homelessness became under control with the advent of social programs was the beginning of the post-war period. In Toronto that's when public housing was significantly expanded from beyond the pre-war efforts more co-op like efforts (like the Bain co-op ... a far more integrated community than the late 1940s Regent Park).
However the lack of social housing keeping up with the population became particularly problematic with the amalgamation of Toronto in 1998, when the suburban councillors' prejudice begame too dominant.
Discussing recent factors rather than relatively recent changes, is a recipe for not solving the problems. I'd think that anything back to the previous homeless peaks in the 1930s is 100 percent relevant here, and I think the constant dirge of the "anything that happened more than 10 years ago is irrelevant" attitude, especially on this issue, is counter-productive and completely ignores how we solved this problem last time, and how things worked when it wasn't as big of an issue as it is today.
This attitude perplexes me - I don't know if this is ignorance, failing to pay attention in history class, or what.
Perhaps it's similar to what we see with increasing number of people not taking into account the extreme evil of the far-left and far-right.
Do we want to improve the homeless and TTC issue or not?
I'm not aware of this ... what is happening there? I'm seldom up there, but I haven't noticed anything on the occasional 7 pm transfer from GO to the subway.
Mr.Tang
Active Member
Its been repeatedly commented - this is not a debate about murder on the TTC or violent crime. That is trying to win the debate by changing tropics. It is about people being disruptive / yelling and potentially being dangerous, unnecessary transit delays, laying half naked across multiple seats, smelling up the whole subway car..., etc. And you personally may think this is not an issue (just "disruption") and society should just be more accommodating...but I think the point of this thread is that people's patience is increasingly running out. Mine is.
Mihairokov
Senior Member
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Mr.Tang
Active Member
Not sure what to make of that response? That such trivialities should be taken to the complaints department?
Mihairokov
Senior Member
You'll probably make more progress notifying the TTC than discussing the homeless people on TTC vehicles here in this thread ad nauseum, yeah.
What should we do about it? Provide better mental health and addiction recovery services in this city. Our Provincial Government doesn't want that to happen, though, and so in the meantime there's not really much to say here without making this entire thread into a scapegoat parade on the less fortunate, akin to a facebook group more than anything else.
But hey, if people feel better coming on here and complaining about someone lying down on the streetcar for the millionth time then by all means get your rocks off.
oakwoodsfinest
New Member
apologies if this is the wrong forum for this but there's a new motion at council on ODSP shelter allowance accumulation and the more I read it the less crazy it seems? https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2026.MM41.4
"This motion requests that the Province of Ontario amend Ontario Works and the Ontario Disability Support Program rules to allow individuals without a fixed address to retain and save their shelter allowance, so it can be used to help secure housing.
Ontario continues to experience rising levels of homelessness, placing increasing pressure on shelters, hospitals, and other emergency services. Many individuals receiving Ontario Works or ODSP remain unable to transition into housing due to upfront costs such as first and last month’s rent.
Under current rules, individuals without a fixed address are not eligible to receive the shelter portion of their social assistance benefits. As a result, they are unable to accumulate funds that could otherwise be used to secure housing. This creates a cycle in which individuals remain in shelters or temporary accommodations because they cannot save enough to move into stable housing.
Allowing individuals to retain and save their shelter allowance would remove a clear barrier to exiting homelessness. This change would enable people to build toward securing housing without requiring new funding, by making more effective use of existing supports."
"This motion requests that the Province of Ontario amend Ontario Works and the Ontario Disability Support Program rules to allow individuals without a fixed address to retain and save their shelter allowance, so it can be used to help secure housing.
Ontario continues to experience rising levels of homelessness, placing increasing pressure on shelters, hospitals, and other emergency services. Many individuals receiving Ontario Works or ODSP remain unable to transition into housing due to upfront costs such as first and last month’s rent.
Under current rules, individuals without a fixed address are not eligible to receive the shelter portion of their social assistance benefits. As a result, they are unable to accumulate funds that could otherwise be used to secure housing. This creates a cycle in which individuals remain in shelters or temporary accommodations because they cannot save enough to move into stable housing.
Allowing individuals to retain and save their shelter allowance would remove a clear barrier to exiting homelessness. This change would enable people to build toward securing housing without requiring new funding, by making more effective use of existing supports."
gabe
Senior Member
Saw what looked like a homeless guy under the influence of drugs, pass out and did a face plant to the floor of the streetcar today. Us passengers tried to help him. We carried him off at a stop. The TTC driver called for EMS. Hopefully the guy is okay, just another crazy day on the TTC sadly.
doady
Senior Member
Problems like homelessness and crime stems from chronic government underfunding of health care, education, housing, but we mostly look for band aid solutions like more police, jail beds, shelter beds, or even blame government intervention in the case of housing, which is too bad.