[smallspy]

The problem with this reasoning is that no amount of money or political will can fix the fact that Metrolinx is full of people who view RER as "a repudiation of all they have accomplished", and "that's not how things work here". All the money and political backing means nothing if you don't have the right people for the job and it should be abundantly clear Metrolinx does not have the right people for this job, or any job that has been asked of them. Metrolinx suffers from the same degenerative old railhead, old boys club culture that the TTC and the Freight operators suffer from. They are quite content with the status quo and would prefer to keep outsiders out so they don't get their ego's hurt when they are inevitably told that there is a better way. They are not going to usher us into some golden age of passenger rail service anytime soon. Metrolinx is a rotten organization that needs to be cleaned out and populated by people with an actual vision if we are to have any hope of digging ourselves out of our transit mess. This probably isn't going to happen anytime soon with the Province putting one of their own goons in charge instead of someone with the capacity to tell the old heads to pound sand.

I think somone on Reddit summed it up nicely. Metrolinx is run by "railway people", not "transit people"

** Rant Over **.(Trust me I could have kept going but I won't. My disdain for Metrolinx is boundless and they keep have yet to give me a reason to stop).

The problem with this view is that it couldn't be further from the truth.

Yes, the TTC (and many other agencies) do suffer from a very strong institutional fear of doing things differently than the way that they've always done it. There are a lot of different reasons why that is the case - some good, some bad.

This is not the case at Metrolinx as there is simply no one there who has been there long enough to have that problem. A very large portion of the organization is run by people fresh out of school, or who have worked for consulting firms and thus only have a very, very surface level understanding of the way things operate within the organization that they are now entrusted to manage. To use an outdated term, there are way too many "yes men" working there who only know how to approve something and let the bottom dwellers below them figure it out without knowing of the ramifications of their decision (as if it was ever really a decision at all).

Couple that with an executive level that has been parachuted in from other countries without any knowledge of the local rules and regulations, and you get a dysfunctional layer cake that was ripe to implode. That it hasn't quite yet is something of a minor miracle.

Dan

 

[cplchanb]

There is a steady stream of things getting done at ML, the problem is that the actual reality of what is going on and what is promised, or said to be going on, are very different.
While there may be some change resistance, I would argue there has also been an unhealthy injection of people who believe things change overnight and by merely waving a magic wand. The “we know better” mentality is even more pronounced from those who claim to see the “vision”. Folks, nothing happens overnight, and successful change is all about managing the details.
I agree that ML has been guilty of poor work management and shifting priorities. More could be done faster. But at the same time, there are logical sequences and money flows in tranches and not all at once.
If anyone is dreaming of subway-like EMU’s, level boarding, automated train operation, and such… wonderful. I don’t disagree. But it won’t all happen at once. A lot of the frustration expressed on UT is just impatience and the pushback is not change resistance, it’s informed people explainjng how it needs to play out.
What is needed is a more adult conversation where ML lays out its plans and sequencing, and the public then holds them to account for getting it done. Plan the work, but then work the plan. Elephants are eaten only one strak at a time (insert other good cliches here)

- Paul

their biggest problem is that they like to start multiple projects all at once but they cant seem to finish any 1 on time... just look at each of their rail corridors... why cant they just focus on finishing improvements on 1 line and then go on to the next one instead of piecemeal scattered work that doesnt seem to end.
for example on the stoufville line, the stations are all done and just waiting for the track connections, yet we see a pile of completed track segments sitting on the side of the corridor waiting for months to be installed. can they not just finish the job before moving onto the next one? what is their end game in this?
are they trying to stretch out the work to keep union labour employed? are they that short staffed that they have to shift crews around to other sites at the expense of the current project?

either way the only real effective solution is the clean shop on all project management and senior execs. they are mostly incompetent.

 

[Urban Sky]

their biggest problem is that they like to start multiple projects all at once but they cant seem to finish any 1 on time... just look at each of their rail corridors... why cant they just focus on finishing improvements on 1 line and then go on to the next one instead of piecemeal scattered work that doesnt seem to end.
for example on the stoufville line, the stations are all done and just waiting for the track connections, yet we see a pile of completed track segments sitting on the side of the corridor waiting for months to be installed. can they not just finish the job before moving onto the next one? what is their end game in this?

Again: I invite you to visit Montreal to see with your own eyes what happens if you start building electrified rail corridors without any idea of an envisioned end state.

are they trying to stretch out the work to keep union labour employed? are they that short staffed that they have to shift crews around to other sites at the expense of the current project?

If you really have the necessary expertise to question this, you are forgoing a lucrative career in the railroad construction industry, which is desperately searching experts and talents!

either way the only real effective solution is the clean shop on all project management and senior execs. they are mostly incompetent.

I know that your intentions and motivations are genuine, but if I wanted to make sure that nothing gets built and we really lose a full decade to paralysis and lack of competence, I would be advocating exactly the same, i.e., flushing the existing organizational knowledge and project management expertise (which has been carefully built with admittedly a fair share of trial-and-error) down the toilet and restarting the same projects from scratch, while expecting different (better) results…

 

[dowlingm]

their biggest problem is that they like to start multiple projects all at once but they cant seem to finish any 1 on time

If Metrolinx has too much on their plate, why did government just make an announcement to start a new Metrolinx project at Woodbine? Surely the Minister's office has as good a line of sight into their internal operations as you do?

 

[Urban Sky]

If Metrolinx has too much on their plate, why did government just make an announcement to start a new Metrolinx project at Woodbine? Surely the Minister's office has as good a line of sight into their internal operations as you do?

This procurement seems to me to be part of the planning for the GO Expansion megaproject rather than a new, separate project, so it’s just indicative of the complexity of GO Expansion rather than of the multitude of projects juggled by Metrolinx:

Construction underway on new Woodbine GO Station

Future transit station will bring service to Etobicoke entertainment hub.

www.metrolinx.com

 

[cplchanb]

Again: I invite you to visit Montreal to see with your own eyes what happens if you start building electrified rail corridors without any idea of an envisioned end state.

honestly screw the electrifying part of the corridor at this point. were talking about finishing the corridor improvements that they promised us half a decade ago. i just dont want to see an abandoned pile of track sitting on the siding ready to be installed for years... that has nothing to do with electrification.
i want to see platforms that clearly CN does not have access to still be built using the same standards to accomodate freight trains (that massive gap between the accessible platform and the train.
i want to see them connect the platforms that we paid for dearly with our tax money instead of having their tv screens perpetually say platform not in service. milliken for example has track ready to connect to the platform sitting on the siding for months/years.

and guess what i did go to montreal and i did see the REM working. at least they got something done and theyre working on the next phase. what do we have to show? we are here still sitting on pile of mini sub assemblies but have nothing completed.

 

[Dan416]

I think with an underinvested in region like the GTA, the benefit of the piecemeal, a little bit everywhere approach, is that you get lots of announcements all over the region, rather than on just one line. Look how many announcements they get to make along the Ontario Line, the Eglinton Line, the various GO corridors. The fact that literally nothing is finished yet is immaterial, they can still tout that they're building things in every corner.

But agreed, it's endlessly frustrating. Even something seemingly as simple as the Eglinton Line is taking forever to build. And Hurontario honestly just seems so far behind. I really thought with the ROW pretty built, they'd start laying some tracks. But I don't even see track being installed, which is extremely frustrating. And don't get me started on the lack of progress or additional trains on the Milton line.

 

[Urban Sky]

honestly screw the electrifying part of the corridor at this point. were talking about finishing the corridor improvements that they promised us half a decade ago. i just dont want to see an abandoned pile of track sitting on the siding ready to be installed for years... that has nothing to do with electrification.
i want to see platforms that clearly CN does not have access to still be built using the same standards to accomodate freight trains (that massive gap between the accessible platform and the train.
i want to see them connect the platforms that we paid for dearly with our tax money instead of having their tv screens perpetually say platform not in service. milliken for example has track ready to connect to the platform sitting on the siding for months/years.

Many of the factors that applied to electrification also apply here: there might not be a point in raising platforms or adding switches and tracks at this point if the relevant tracks are not yet in their final position or their final position has not yet been decided. Also, with the current staffing challenges in the railroad industry, it might simply not be possible or practical to implement such small measures without bundling them to bigger measures. It’s a bit like connecting the tracks at the Eastern end of West Harbour station, which needed to wait until CN finalized the new interlocking design.

and guess what i did go to montreal and i did see the REM working. at least they got something done and theyre working on the next phase. what do we have to show? we are here still sitting on pile of mini sub assemblies but have nothing completed.

The point with recommending a visit to Montreal was that everything you see operating (or under construction) now is what you will see operating in 40 years’ time, because the surrender of the Mont-Royal tunnel (to marginally speed up the construction of the REM) has obliterated any notion of strategic rail network planning in the Greater Montreal region and any kind of expansion towards Laval is now faced with the hurdle of reestablishing a convenient downtown link, which could easily cost $10 billion and take 10 years to build, while paralyzing downtown Montreal.

I think with an underinvested in region like the GTA, the benefit of the piecemeal, a little bit everywhere approach, is that you get lots of announcements all over the region, rather than on just one line. Look how many announcements they get to make along the Ontario Line, the Eglinton Line, the various GO corridors. The fact that literally nothing is finished yet is immaterial, they can still tout that they're building things in every corner.

There is no real link between how projects are designed and how many press conferences can be held and “first shovels” be hit into the ground. Note the overwhelming number of “important announcements” with which federal Transport ministers have visited almost every single station at the Quebec-Windsor Corridor to announce trivial developments on VIA Rail’s Corridor Fleet Renewal or High Frequency Rail…

But agreed, it's endlessly frustrating. Even something seemingly as simple as the Eglinton Line is taking forever to build. And Hurontario honestly just seems so far behind. I really thought with the ROW pretty built, they'd start laying some tracks. But I don't even see track being installed, which is extremely frustrating. And don't get me started on the lack of progress or additional trains on the Milton line.

The pace of developments is indeed frustrating, but mostly so to those who have never witnessed how slowly similar projects move in other rich democracies. Most people here have enough knowledge to perceive that their are delays and descoping, but not enough to understand that these complaints are pretty universal and global phenomena in the rail construction industry…

 

[sixrings]

I think with an underinvested in region like the GTA, the benefit of the piecemeal, a little bit everywhere approach, is that you get lots of announcements all over the region, rather than on just one line. Look how many announcements they get to make along the Ontario Line, the Eglinton Line, the various GO corridors. The fact that literally nothing is finished yet is immaterial, they can still tout that they're building things in every corner.

But agreed, it's endlessly frustrating. Even something seemingly as simple as the Eglinton Line is taking forever to build. And Hurontario honestly just seems so far behind. I really thought with the ROW pretty built, they'd start laying some tracks. But I don't even see track being installed, which is extremely frustrating. And don't get me started on the lack of progress or additional trains on the Milton line.

Shoutout to the wasted potential of the Milton line.

 

[smallspy]

honestly screw the electrifying part of the corridor at this point. were talking about finishing the corridor improvements that they promised us half a decade ago. i just dont want to see an abandoned pile of track sitting on the siding ready to be installed for years... that has nothing to do with electrification.
i want to see platforms that clearly CN does not have access to still be built using the same standards to accomodate freight trains (that massive gap between the accessible platform and the train.
i want to see them connect the platforms that we paid for dearly with our tax money instead of having their tv screens perpetually say platform not in service. milliken for example has track ready to connect to the platform sitting on the siding for months/years.

So you want a subway then. And to hell with VIA or any sort of long-distance commuting.

Dan

 

[cplchanb]

The pace of developments is indeed frustrating, but mostly so to those who have never witnessed how slowly similar projects move in other rich democracies. Most people here have enough knowledge to perceive that their are delays and descoping, but not enough to understand that these complaints are pretty universal and global phenomena in the rail construction industry…

I can give a pass to Japan and their chou shinkansen construction since they are literally carving out 90% of their line through mountains as well as using maglev.... but comon.... we're just laying some on grade track and we're going to take almost as long as HSR tunneling????

No excuses here

 

[Urban Sky]

I can give a pass to Japan and their chou shinkansen construction since they are literally carving out 90% of their line through mountains as well as using maglev.... but comon.... we're just laying some on grade track and we're going to take almost as long as HSR tunneling????

No excuses here

Again: if you had any significant familiarity with transit project delivery in other countries, you wouldn’t be so incensed about the delays, budget overruns and descoping we are seeing here and erroneously believe that they are a uniquely Canadian (let alone: Metrolinx-specific) phenomenon. They really aren’t, but to understand that, you would need to look at reasonably similar projects in reasonably similar countries…

 

[cplchanb]

Again: if you had any significant familiarity with transit project delivery in other countries, you wouldn’t be so incensed about the delays, budget overruns and descoping we are seeing here and erroneously believe that they are a uniquely Canadian (let alone: Metrolinx-specific) phenomenon. They really aren’t, but to understand that, you would need to look at reasonably similar projects in reasonably similar countries…

Its hard to find reasonably similar countries because they already have all of these rail networks running for years. We are far behind and struggling to catch up because we sat on our hands for a generation.

 

[cplchanb]

So you want a subway then. And to hell with VIA or any sort of long-distance commuting.

Dan

What part suggested i want a subway? I want things built efficiently instead of piecemeal over multiple generations

 

[drum118]

Siemens to Roll Out Battery-Electric Passenger Locomotives in North America​