[ssiguy2]

Greater Perth has one/quarter of the population served by GO. I think some of you are trying to make excuses for lying and incompetence by ML. The sad reality is that ML has been lying about electrification and it's intention of doing it. GO will still be a much better commuter rail service than it once was but this idea of it becoming a true rapid transit suburban rail network is now off the table. Torontonians better get use to that.

 

[afransen]

Greater Perth has one/quarter of the population served by GO. I think some of you are trying to make excuses for lying and incompetence by ML. The sad reality is that ML has been lying about electrification and it's intention of doing it. GO will still be a much better commuter rail service than it once was but this idea of it becoming a true rapid transit suburban rail network is now off the table. Torontonians better get use to that.

It definitely seems we are being gaslit into thinking this is no big deal, and that we shouldn't get our pitchforks out.

 

[Urban Sky]

The entire point of highlighting the example of Perth was to show that whereas the desired end state of the original GO Expansion scope is totally reasonable (and very comparable to what Perth has achieved), it will take multiple decades to achieve that state when starting from our current starting point.

The transformation of Perth’s regional rail network started in the mid-1980s, really took speed with the electrification of the first three corridors in 1991 and is still ongoing. We are therefore almost 40 years back (compared to them) and it was very foolish to believe that we could achieve the same they achieved in half the time it took them.

With that said, if Australia pulled it off in Perth, there is no reason to doubt that we Canadians can achieve something very similar here in Toronto - and we are certainly on the way to eventually get there, even if the achievable pace seems to be exhausting the patience of some of us…

 

[ssiguy2]

^^^ How much of that time in Perth was due to funding? ML has been given a crap load of money to get this done and yet nothing, absolutely nothing. Somehow ML has managed to fund parking garages to the point that it is now the largest parking provider in NA and yet can't afford to put up some poles? ML also never promised monster parking garages but did promise electrification...........they lied!

Unless they ditch all the mandarins at ML and start exploring alternatives, electrification is dead for the next decade. Seeing any alternatives are not to even be discussed, this thread, unfortunatetly, might as well close because there really is nothing left to talk about.

 

[Bojaxs]

^^^ How much of that time in Perth was due to funding? ML has been given a crap load of money to get this done and yet nothing, absolutely nothing. Somehow ML has managed to fund parking garages to the point that it is now the largest parking provider in NA and yet can't afford to put up some poles? ML also never promised monster parking garages but did promise electrification...........they lied!

Unless they ditch all the mandarins at ML and start exploring alternatives, electrification is dead for the next decade. Seeing any alternatives are not to even be discussed, this thread, unfortunatetly, might as well close because there really is nothing left to talk about.

How is ML doing nothing? Just check out the "GO Construction" thread.

 

[cplchanb]

How is ML doing nothing? Just check out the "GO Construction" thread.

Yea but what's there to show for the electrification part of it which represents a huge chunk of the expansion scope? What has been done so far?

 

[Urban Sky]

Yea but what's there to show for the electrification part of it which represents a huge chunk of the expansion scope? What has been done so far?

Tons and tons of enabling work so that once all tracks are finally in their right place, electrification can proceed relatively swiftly…

 

[cplchanb]

Tons and tons of enabling work so that once all tracks are finally in their right place, electrification can proceed relatively swiftly…

Means mainly nothing if they don't actually do the job soo . Bet itll be so long down the road that many of the traction substation would need to be overhauled by the time they finally get to it at the same price it costed us to build them from scratch.... thats how things always work here

 

[crs1026]

Means mainly nothing if they don't actually do the job soo . Bet itll be so long down the road that many of the traction substation would need to be overhauled by the time they finally get to it at the same price it costed us to build them from scratch.... thats how things always work here

This really comes across as the logic of a whiny kid who just wants their favourite thing and wants it now.

I can't defend ML's performance in "getting things done".... but I'm fairly confident that they or the new consortium have some logical sequencing of work, and there are prerequisites that reasonably come first before electrification can be installed, and things that need the available funding immediately, such that getting on with early electrification work just to have it under way would drain money from other tasks that need to be finished first.

Anyways, I won't debate further with you. I am pressing the Ignore button and leaving it at that.

- Paul

 

[cplchanb]

This really comes across as the logic of a whiny kid who just wants their favourite thing and wants it now.

I can't defend ML's performance in "getting things done".... but I'm fairly confident that they or the new consortium have some logical sequencing of work, and there are prerequisites that reasonably come first before electrification can be installed, and things that need the available funding immediately, such that getting on with early electrification work just to have it under way would drain money from other tasks that need to be finished first.

Anyways, I won't debate further with you. I am pressing the Ignore button and leaving it at that.

- Paul

spoken like a true north american shrug shoulder to infrastructure delay mentality with no ambition. The chou shinkansen which is 90% tunnels would be finished before relatively simple OCS work has even started, and they both started almost at the same time. Also the japanese govt decided to push fonal completion from 2045 up to 2037. Thats why here nothing gets done... People have no sense of urgency or political spine to push things across the line as soon as things get a bit difficult. that or its just all political pandering to get the votes for the election cycle and worry about it on the 3rd year.

Case in point you can look at the ect example. Thats beyond a "whiny kid wanting toys". The kid has grown into an adult and the toy that the kid wanted is still not delivered from the factory. This is exactly heading to be the same thing. Picture it as the parents (govt, ML) promised the kid (taxpayers) a big gift (electrification) for working hard at school (elect them in and pay your taxes). The kid does so and the parents give him small token rewards (announcment of plans, "prereq. work...") but the big reward never comes. Meanwhile the kid has graduated from elementary school, high school and will be in university. By the time 2030s come he will be graduated from uni as well and a fully grown adult. Where is the big gift the parents promised or was it just all fake to get him through school?

btw... what debate did you have with me? You just made your 1 statement and quit right away.

 

[PL1]

spoken like a true north american shrug shoulder to infrastructure delay mentality with no ambition. The chou shinkansen which is 90% tunnels would be finished before relatively simple OCS work has even started, and they both started almost at the same time. Also the japanese govt decided to push fonal completion from 2045 up to 2037. Thats why here nothing gets done... People have no sense of urgency or political spine to push things across the line as soon as things get a bit difficult. that or its just all political pandering to get the votes for the election cycle and worry about it on the 3rd year.

Case in point you can look at the ect example. Thats beyond a "whiny kid wanting toys". The kid has grown into an adult and the toy that the kid wanted is still not delivered from the factory. This is exactly heading to be the same thing. Picture it as the parents (govt, ML) promised the kid (taxpayers) a big gift (electrification) for working hard at school (elect them in and pay your taxes). The kid does so and the parents give him small token rewards (announcment of plans, "prereq. work...") but the big reward never comes. Meanwhile the kid has graduated from elementary school, high school and will be in university. By the time 2030s come he will be graduated from uni as well and a fully grown adult. Where is the big gift the parents promised or was it just all fake to get him through school?

btw... what debate did you have with me? You just made your 1 statement and quit right away.

Have you written to Metrolinx and/the Minister of Transportation?

To me, ML are guilty of announcing plans but being vague on timelines. They should be clearer and honest.

 

[cplchanb]

Have you written to Metrolinx and/the Minister of Transportation?

To me, ML are guilty of announcing plans but being vague on timelines. They should be clearer and honest.

Unfortunately their response will probably be like what they give for their line 5 standardized messaging. We'll announce it when its politically safe to do so.

Iirc though back when the project first started they had some meaningful progress, but once Ford came in they went into full embargo on news and the descoping began.

 

[ssiguy2]

Yea but what's there to show for the electrification part of it which represents a huge chunk of the expansion scope? What has been done so far?

Exactly. This is not the GO construction thread but rather one of GO electrification. Obviously there is a lot going on with GO but nothing that is of any relevance to this thread. Unless ML has some form of epiphany, we could be talking about what went wrong and what will happen someday till 2032 and then only to find out the electrification has been delayed for another 5 years.

ML has been pathologically lying for the last decade and there is no reason to think this won't continue. This is made worse by the fact that it is now clear that ML doesn't even know where it's going. This thread has become nothing more than a place to vent frustrations and lick our wounds.......it has lost it's raison d'etre.

 

[duty free]

Toronto is in a rare and fortunate position where there are no tunnels needed at all because there are no stranded sections of the system that stop at different downtown terminals. The central corridor through Union is sufficiently wide to be able to fit all of the existing services.

Attempting to branch the Lakeshore GO lines within Toronto adds a needless level of complication that just needs to get entangled later. I'm not going to pretend to know whether it is better to electrify one line at a time or starting from Union and proceeding outwards, but rather than have separate all-electric and all-diesel services, we should really be getting dual-mode locomotives when electrification begins. But that's a fair ways off.

To me, what's defined as a "solid project" is one that is quantifiable and gets the system closer to a built-out, reliable, electrified system. Those solid projects are things like grade separations, double tracking, and utility relocations that have tangible benefits now. Electrifying the Lakeshore line from Oakville to Whitby will be a solid project soon, and then Kitchener, Barrie, and Stouffville can be "hooked in" over time.

I guess it just really depends on what level of service GO eventually scales to.

You can see in the table above what the maximum capacity of Union is without a tunnel and what it could scale to with one. As of now we don't need one, but look at the potential of having one and tell me that it wouldn't be transformative to transit in the region. One step at a time.

Do you or does anyone else know when will these trains through run? Through running in itself would be game changing and seems like a logical first step towards electrification.

 

[JSF-1]

Do you or does anyone else know when will these trains through run? Through running in itself would be game changing and seems like a logical first step towards electrification.

Besides the Lake Shore Lines which routes do we through-run? There is an imbalance between the routes east and west of union so which lines would we pair with the Stouffville and Richmond Hill lines? Also keep in mind ML also has plans to construct the Bolton Line which will add another route to the west of union. So we can through-run 6 of the lines while 2 would terminate at Union.

EDIT* We could hypothetically add another route from the east if we could work out something with CP rail to use the Leaside Subdivision. Of course assuming we could work with CP would this line follow the Leaside sub into Oshawa, or would it follow the Havelock sub to Peterborough. Having two routes running from Oshawa to Union would be redundant so the best option here would be for the route to be from Peterborough to Union via the Havelock and Leaside subs. Then the service from Oshawa on the Leaside sub could be the Mid-Town line to wherever.