[ssiguy2]

Siemens to Roll Out Battery-Electric Passenger Locomotives in North America​

Clearly you are in need of "professional help" so don't you EVER put up such an offensive post again lest you be labelled a troll at best or banned at worse.

I have been roasted over the coals for even suggesting it as a potential alternative. It maybe a good idea elsewhere but we are talking about Toronto on the UrbanToronto forum and such ideas are both ignorant and repugnant. Consider yourself warned.

 

[nfitz]

Clearly you are in need of "professional help" so don't you EVER put up such an offensive post again lest you be labelled a troll at best or banned at worse.

I have been roasted over the coals for even suggesting it as a potential alternative. It maybe a good idea elsewhere but we are talking about Toronto on the UrbanToronto forum and such ideas are both ignorant and repugnant. Consider yourself warned.

Is this a joke?

 

[ssiguy2]

^^ Not at all. I can speak from personal experience that even mentioning the word battery is a near death sentence on this forum.

After being accused of everything in the book for even mentioning them, I am just giving him fair notice as to the consequences of bringing up such heresy. Battery trains simply do not exist. After months of intensive therapy, I now acknowledge that reality and these were nothing but figment of my imagination and are not based in reality. I feel much better now and both my therapists have said that if I continue to see progress in understanding the myth that are battery trains, I may be given a day pass.

 

[generalcanada]

 

[Urban Sky]

Its hard to find reasonably similar countries because they already have all of these rail networks running for years.

Let's follow the recommendation of @Reecemartin and go with Australia, where I find Perth to be quite a reasonable comparison:

	Toronto/Metrolinx	Perth/Transperth
Population (metropolitan)	6,202,225 (CMA, 2021 Census)	2,384,371 (Estimated Resident Population at 30 June 2024)
Network length (rail)	532 km	270 km
(of which: electrified)	0 km	270 km (100%)
Electrification type:	25 kV@60Hz AC (planned)	25 kV@50Hz AC
Track gauge	1435 mm (Standard Gauge)	1067 mm (Cape Gauge)
Annual ridership	53,492,000 (2024)	59,723,266 (year to June 2024)
Number of rail corridors	7 (excl. UP Express)	8
Number of stations (rail)	68	85

Let's have a look at the timeline of each Transperth Corridor:

Line	Planning/Approval	Cost/timeline estimates (AUD)	Construction	Opening	Typical frequency (2025)
Midland Line (16.1 km)	No information found	No information found	No information found	1881: Initial opening to Guildford 1884: Extension to Chidlow's Well (i.e., beyond Midland) 1991: Electrification	Peak: 12m Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m
Airport Line (8.6 km branch of Midland Line)	2004: Proposed as Light Rail branch 2012: Preferred route announced 2013: Political commitment 2014: Cabinet approval 2015: EA approval	2012: $731 million (Labor party) to $1.446 (Treasury) 2013: $1.895 billion for opening date of 2018 2016: $2.372 billion for opening date of 2020	2015: RFP 2016: Preferred Bidder selected 2017: Construction begins	2022: Opening (i.e., 18 years after first proposal, 8 years after cabinet approval and 4 years later than promised)	Peak: 12m Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m
Armadale Line (30.4 km)	No information found	No information found	No information found	1893-1954: Initial opening in various steps 1991: Electrification	Day: 15m Evening: 30m
Ellenbrook Line (21.2 km branch of Midland Line)	1955: First plan 1963: Land reserved through Metropolitan Region Scheme 2008: Political commitment 2009: Cancellation of Route Definition Study 2011: Political decision to study a BRT route instead 2017: Cancellation of BRT project 2018: $500 million approved in Federal Budget 2020: EA and legislative approval	2016: $49 million 2017: $863 million 2018: Opening date of 2022-23 2020: $1.123 billion	2020: RFP 2022: Start of construction	2024: Opening (i.e., 69 years after first plans, 16 years after political commitment and 1-2 years later than promised)	Peak: 12m Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m
Freemantle Line (19.0 km)	No information found	No information found	2011-2014: Burying line in CBD for development	1881: Initial Opening 1979: Closure 1983: Service reinstated 1991: Electrification	Peak: 12m Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m
Mandurah Line (70.8 km)	1990: Construction of new route recommended by South West Area Transit (SWAT) Study 1992: DOT recommends construction of light rail line 1995: Political commitment 2001: route changed to tunnel underneath CBD following change of government 2002: Legislative approval	1993: Opening dates of 1996 (to Rockingham) and 2001 (to Mandurah) 1995: $150 million to Jandakot for opening date of 2005 (entire line: $570 million without opening date) 2010: Total costs released of $1.725 billion	2004: division of construction into contract packages	2007: Opening (i.e., 17 years after first Study, 12 years after Political commitment and 6-11 years later than promised)	Peak: 12m (6m to Cockburn) Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m
Thornlie-Cockburn Line (approx. 12 km long connection between Armadale and Mandurah Lines)	No information found	No information found	mid-2005: award of contract	December 2007: Opening (i.e., 2.5 years after award of contract	Day: 15m Evening: 30m
Yanchep Line (54.5 km)	1955: first proposal 1983: planning for electrification commences 1989: approval of Master Plan 1990: Legislative approval 1996: Political commitment for expansion to Clarkson 2008: Political commitment for expansion to Butler 2017: Federal funding for expansion to Yanchep	To Joondalup 1988: $124 million 1989: $222.8 million for opening date of 1992-93 Yanchep expansion 2017: $386 million (election campaign), $520.2 million (state budget) 2019: $531.7 million (contract volume) 2024: $1.27 billion	1990: start of construction to Joondalup 2001: construction contracts awarded for expansion to Clarkson 2010: construction contracts awarded for expansion to Butler 2018: RFP for expansion to Yanchep	1992: Opening to Joondalup (i.e., 37 years after first proposal and 3 years after approval of Master plan) 2004: Opening of extension to Clarkson (i.e., 8 years after political commitment) 2014: Opening of extension to Butler (i.e., 6 years after political commitment) 2024: Opening of extension to Yanchep (i.e., 7 years after federal funding)	Peak: 10m (5m to Whitfords) Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m

As you see above, the government started to get really serious in the 1980s and the electrification of 3 lines (in 1991) was probably the most significant milestone. But even 4 decades (and many significant cost and time overruns!) later, they are still not finished expanding their network...

We are far behind and struggling to catch up because we sat on our hands for a generation.

Sure, but it’s useless to agonize about the past - and completely unnecessary when we currently live in the period with the most political will & funding, as well as construction activity in anyone's lifetime. Sure, we all wish it would happen faster, but the change we are watching is still probably the most ambitious in any rich country governed by the rule of law...

 

[afransen]

^^ Not at all. I can speak from personal experience that even mentioning the word battery is a near death sentence on this forum.

After being accused of everything in the book for even mentioning them, I am just giving him fair notice as to the consequences of bringing up such heresy. Battery trains simply do not exist. After months of intensive therapy, I now acknowledge that reality and these were nothing but figment of my imagination and are not based in reality. I feel much better now and both my therapists have said that if I continue to see progress in understanding the myth that are battery trains, I may be given a day pass.

No, I think think the 'crime' is repeatedly raising the idea in such a way as to derail threads. This can be considered trolling, especially if it persists after being asked to stop.

 

[smallspy]

What part suggested i want a subway? I want things built efficiently instead of piecemeal over multiple generations

You want to make the line incompatible with the existing equipment, and buy new equipment that will be the only things that can run on it.

That makes it a subway. No more VIA trains, no more GO trains, no more freights.

Dan

 

[Urban Sky]

You want to make the line incompatible with the existing equipment, and buy new equipment that will be the only things that can run on it.

That makes it a subway. No more VIA trains, no more GO trains, no more freights.

Dan

REM in a nutshell, or rather: on steroids.

 

[Allandale25]

Let's follow the recommendation of @Reecemartin and go with Australia, where I find Perth to be quite a reasonable comparison:

	Toronto/Metrolinx	Perth/Transperth
Population (metropolitan)	6,202,225 (CMA, 2021 Census)	2,384,371 (Estimated Resident Population at 30 June 2024)
Network length (rail)	532 km	270 km
(of which: electrified)	0 km	270 km (100%)
Electrification type:	25 kV@60Hz AC (planned)	25 kV@50Hz AC
Track gauge	1435 mm (Standard Gauge)	1067 mm (Cape Gauge)
Annual ridership	53,492,000 (2024)	59,723,266 (year to June 2024)
Number of rail corridors	7 (excl. UP Express)	8
Number of stations (rail)	68	85

Let's have a look at the timeline of each Transperth Corridor:

Line	Planning/Approval	Cost/timeline estimates (AUD)	Construction	Opening	Typical frequency (2025)
Midland Line (16.1 km)	No information found	No information found	No information found	1881: Initial opening to Guildford 1884: Extension to Chidlow's Well (i.e., beyond Midland) 1991: Electrification	Peak: 12m Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m
Airport Line (8.6 km branch of Midland Line)	2004: Proposed as Light Rail branch 2012: Preferred route announced 2013: Political commitment 2014: Cabinet approval 2015: EA approval	2012: $731 million (Labor party) to $1.446 (Treasury) 2013: $1.895 billion for opening date of 2018 2016: $2.372 billion for opening date of 2020	2015: RFP 2016: Preferred Bidder selected 2017: Construction begins	2022: Opening (i.e., 18 years after first proposal, 8 years after cabinet approval and 4 years later than promised)	Peak: 12m Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m
Armadale Line (30.4 km)	No information found	No information found	No information found	1893-1954: Initial opening in various steps 1991: Electrification	Day: 15m Evening: 30m
Ellenbrook Line (21.2 km branch of Midland Line)	1955: First plan 1963: Land reserved through Metropolitan Region Scheme 2008: Political commitment 2009: Cancellation of Route Definition Study 2011: Political decision to study a BRT route instead 2017: Cancellation of BRT project 2018: $500 million approved in Federal Budget 2020: EA and legislative approval	2016: $49 million 2017: $863 million 2018: Opening date of 2022-23 2020: $1.123 billion	2020: RFP 2022: Start of construction	2024: Opening (i.e., 69 years after first plans, 16 years after political commitment and 1-2 years later than promised)	Peak: 12m Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m
Freemantle Line (19.0 km)	No information found	No information found	2011-2014: Burying line in CBD for development	1881: Initial Opening 1979: Closure 1983: Service reinstated 1991: Electrification	Peak: 12m Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m
Mandurah Line (70.8 km)	1990: Construction of new route recommended by South West Area Transit (SWAT) Study 1992: DOT recommends construction of light rail line 1995: Political commitment 2001: route changed to tunnel underneath CBD following change of government 2002: Legislative approval	1993: Opening dates of 1996 (to Rockingham) and 2001 (to Mandurah) 1995: $150 million to Jandakot for opening date of 2005 (entire line: $570 million without opening date) 2010: Total costs released of $1.725 billion	2004: division of construction into contract packages	2007: Opening (i.e., 17 years after first Study, 12 years after Political commitment and 6-11 years later than promised)	Peak: 12m (6m to Cockburn) Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m
Thornlie-Cockburn Line (approx. 12 km long connection between Armadale and Mandurah Lines)	No information found	No information found	mid-2005: award of contract	December 2007: Opening (i.e., 2.5 years after award of contract	Day: 15m Evening: 30m
Yanchep Line (54.5 km)	1955: first proposal 1983: planning for electrification commences 1989: approval of Master Plan 1990: Legislative approval 1996: Political commitment for expansion to Clarkson 2008: Political commitment for expansion to Butler 2017: Federal funding for expansion to Yanchep	To Joondalup 1988: $124 million 1989: $222.8 million for opening date of 1992-93 Yanchep expansion 2017: $386 million (election campaign), $520.2 million (state budget) 2019: $531.7 million (contract volume) 2024: $1.27 billion	1990: start of construction to Joondalup 2001: construction contracts awarded for expansion to Clarkson 2010: construction contracts awarded for expansion to Butler 2018: RFP for expansion to Yanchep	1992: Opening to Joondalup (i.e., 37 years after first proposal and 3 years after approval of Master plan) 2004: Opening of expansion to Clarkson (i.e., 8 years after political commitment) 2014: Opening of expansion to Butler (i.e., 6 years after political commitment)	Peak: 10m (5m to Cockburn) Midday/Weekend: 15m Evening: 30m

As you see above, the government started to get really serious in the 1980s and the electrification of 3 lines (in 1991) was probably the most significant milestone. But even 4 decades later (and many significant cost and time overruns!), they are still not finished expanding their network...


Sure, but it’s useless to agonize about the past - and completely unnecessary when we currently live in the period with the most political will & funding, as well as construction activity in anyone's lifetime. Sure, we all wish it would happen faster, but the change we are watching is still probably the most ambitious in any rich country governed by the rule of law...

Your UT chart skills are impressive.

 

[ssiguy2]

I agree and find it really disheartening how certain people here let the perfect come in the way of the good, by dismissing what is still one of the largest transformations any metropolitan area on this planet is seeing right now, just because the apparent over-ambition has been scaled back to something far more deliverable. Nobody in 25 years will look back and deny that it was worth it, even if we all would have preferred to have it sooner…

Saying no one in 25 years will be lamenting electrification is based upon a false assumption.........that they intend on electrification any time soon.

What ML has done goes beyond poor planning, bureaucratic inertia, or even shocking incompetence, it is nothing but a bold face lie. ML has been lying thru it's teeth about it's electrification goals. It knew YEARS ago that there is no way they were going to get even some electrification by 2026. They hadn't even ordered a new/retooled locomotives for electrification or even put out the poles to tender {little alone actually put one in the ground} yet continued to proclaim that electrification is "right around the corner". Their DELIBERATE lying is why no one any longer believes a word they say and the long suffering Toronto commuters have no faith in the organization to complete the project.

While ML stays in tact, there is absolutely, positively no reason to think that they are not lying again with their 2032 deadline. Torontonians should be lowering their expectations yet again and assume that there will be no electric trains running in the city for at LEAST a decade. It's a sad reality but reality none the less.

 

[cplchanb]

This is what you get when you put major transit infrastructure projects in the hands of bipolar govts who use them as election bargaining chips.

 

[Urban Sky]

This is what you get when you put major transit infrastructure projects in the hands of bipolar govts who use them as election bargaining chips.

I don’t think Perth got a bad deal out of transit being treated as bargaining chips. Click on the Wikipedia articles of Transperth and any of its corridor and count how often election promises and government changes are mentioned…

 

[dowlingm]

@Urban Sky, how much of the Transperth railway network interoperates directly with freight and intercity rail? I wasn’t able to discern that from wiki articles.

Kudos to them for going all in on 25kV rather than mucking about with DC overhead or third rail

 

[allabootmatt]

Australian capital-city rail networks are very impressive, but the urban form is SO different from Canada it's not even funny. Even Sydney is, I believe, approximately 1/2 the density of the GTA. Outside of the CBD and a few hubs, you can go for miles and miles without seeing a building taller than 2-3 stories.

Keep in mind also that no Australian city has a conventional subway network, except Sydney's single recently-opened line. So the suburban rail systems are not complementing rapid transit - they are the rapid transit.

Where we could really learn from the Aussies, and specifically from Melbourne, is on tram operations. That network really works well, and it has to -- because, again, no subway.

 

[Urban Sky]

@Urban Sky, how much of the Transperth railway network interoperates directly with freight and intercity rail? I wasn’t able to discern that from wiki articles.

Intercity Rail is extremely limited, maybe 3 trains per day (plus a weekly transcontinental train, the "Indian Pacific"). Also, they depart from "East Perth", which is 2 stations to the east of the actual "Perth" terminus:

Source: European Rail Timetable - Beyond Europe (Winter 2023/24 Edition)

As for freight services, I'm not sure, but I believe that most corridors have separate tracks for freight. In general, freight rail is king to a similar extent as in Canada.

Kudos to them for going all in on 25kV rather than mucking about with DC overhead or third rail

Nobody who decided to electrify a new heavy rail network in the second half of the 20th century chose anything else than 25 kV (even Canada chose 25kV@60Hz for the Deux-Montagnes line in the early 1990s - until this only piece of mainline electrification in Canada got ripped out for the REM, but that's for a different thread). If you look on OpenRailwayMap at the (US) Northeast Corridor or in certain European countries like France and Russia, you can really see which lines where electrified before (those in any colors like blue or brown-green) or after the breakthrough of 25 kV electrification (those in red):

Spoiler: Northeast Corridor

Spoiler: Europe