[Miltonrider]

There is also the issue that KW and Guelph have large universities, with increasing proportions of students commuting from the western suburbs in addition to the Guelph (and KW?) residents who commute into Toronto and back. The GO bus service is struggling to serve the Milton, Brampton and Mississauga students who currently commute daily to UofG now.

Does the Milton line have an equivalent commuter user base both directions all day?

While not large, Laurier Univeristy has a campus and Conestoga college has two campuses. North of the 401 & east of James Snow is massive amounts or large warehousing and commercial offices.

 

[Miltonrider]

This is the point that all the complainers seem to miss. The Milton cost is huge. It was left out of the original envelope because had it been included, it would have gobbled up the envelope, and other areas would have got nothing.

There is a only finite amount of money available, and it has to be spread across multiple corridors. There are signs that even the original envelope is proving hard to fund.

Personally, I support building all the spokes so we have a regional system that competes with all the major highway corridors.

Would I have chosen Milton over Kitchener? No. Because that would have placed all the investment close to the QEW, plus the KW connection is vital to easing 401/407 traffic and developing KW as an alternative to GTA.

Barrie? Stouffville? Again, omit those and there would be a huge gap in the spoke map, and no effective relief of 400 and 404.

Line 1 extension ? Line 2 extension? Line 3? All of these deserve to come ahead of Milton, especially given that Mississauga is getting LRT and various bits of BRT - so hasn't been forgotten in transit space.

The Crosstown extension? OK, I would have built that on the surface and that savings might have enabled Milton.

Hamilton ? Niagara? Bowmanville? Again, these are critical.

Milton over 413? In a heartbeat, but blame Ford, not the original Big Move planners.

It's all water under the bridge and time for the griping to stop. We are certain to see Milton - when the money is available.

- Paul

I think the true point is that Milton is one of, if not, the fastest growing communities in Ontario. It has been for years, and we can’t even get limited weekend service. Another point is that prior to Covid, for a time, the Milton GO line was the 2nd busiest line outside the combined lakeshore service. The reason it has fallen to fourth is because investment has been provided in the other lines. I would guess that if the investment had been made into the Milton line instead of the Kitchener line, that Milton would still be the second busiest. I also imagine that 2WAD service between Toronto & Milton would not only take cars off the 401, but also the 403 and QEW. I mean we are talking about a line that cuts right through the middle of Mississauga.

Milton over Kitchener. No. Kitchener should have been kept as VIA only service. That now puts it as the Georgetown line. Suddenly the available ridership is less than Milton/Mississauga. Also, Milton is nowhere close to the QEW. Heck, Milton is already built up all the way down to past Britania. It takes a good 30 minutes now to drive from Milton to Bronte GO (which is south of the QEW).

Barrie? Stouffville? No. Much too late now, but Barrie should have been VIA service. Stouffville, no more deserving than Milton. Heck I’ll be selfish. Less deserving.

Line 1, 2, & 3 extensions are subways and service a different commuting pattern. And let’s be practical. All-day service to Milton has a better chance of happening than a line two extension to Mississauga. How does the Mississauga LRT help anyone from the Meadowvale, Lisgar, Milton area get down to Toronto? Now if they had built the LRT along Derry instead of Hurontario, you may have been on to something.

The crosstown extension services Toronto primarily. I agree, it should have been built all above ground.

Hamilton already has all day service to West Harbor. May not be downtown Hamilton, but it is still Hamilton. Frequent Niagara service will never happen due to the canal being in the way. Bowmanville should be VIA rail service.

I agree, HWY 413 is a waste of tax dollars and should never be built.

All that said, I’m not even asking for hourly 2WAD service. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’d be happy if there was limited 2WAD service that would allow Milton residents to take the train on Saturday / Sunday to spend a day in the city or catch a sports event / concert and return home. All that would be required is hiring more crews (or pay overtime for existing crews), reactivate the third track already laid between Dixie and Erindale, and pay CP Rail for some weekend slots. Heck in the mid 90’s, not only was there all-day service to Erindale, but there was also a return 6:30pm train from Milton during weekday rush. That doesn’t seem like much to ask for the fastest growing city in Ontario!

In reality, this is all political. The government sees the Kitchener line as low hanging fruit. Easier negotiation with CN, then with CP, along with already owing some of the right of way, compared to Milton which they don’t own. I’m thinking Doug also assumes that Milton / Mississauga ridings are his by default, so no need to come through with better GO service. Promise the money, but never come through.

 

[sixrings]

I think the true point is that Milton is one of, if not, the fastest growing communities in Ontario. It has been for years, and we can’t even get limited weekend service. Another point is that prior to Covid, for a time, the Milton GO line was the 2nd busiest line outside the combined lakeshore service. The reason it has fallen to fourth is because investment has been provided in the other lines. I would guess that if the investment had been made into the Milton line instead of the Kitchener line, that Milton would still be the second busiest. I also imagine that 2WAD service between Toronto & Milton would not only take cars off the 401, but also the 403 and QEW. I mean we are talking about a line that cuts right through the middle of Mississauga.

Milton over Kitchener. No. Kitchener should have been kept as VIA only service. That now puts it as the Georgetown line. Suddenly the available ridership is less than Milton/Mississauga. Also, Milton is nowhere close to the QEW. Heck, Milton is already built up all the way down to past Britania. It takes a good 30 minutes now to drive from Milton to Bronte GO (which is south of the QEW).

Barrie? Stouffville? No. Much too late now, but Barrie should have been VIA service. Stouffville, no more deserving than Milton. Heck I’ll be selfish. Less deserving.

Line 1, 2, & 3 extensions are subways and service a different commuting pattern. And let’s be practical. All-day service to Milton has a better chance of happening than a line two extension to Mississauga. How does the Mississauga LRT help anyone from the Meadowvale, Lisgar, Milton area get down to Toronto? Now if they had built the LRT along Derry instead of Hurontario, you may have been on to something.

The crosstown extension services Toronto primarily. I agree, it should have been built all above ground.

Hamilton already has all day service to West Harbor. May not be downtown Hamilton, but it is still Hamilton. Frequent Niagara service will never happen due to the canal being in the way. Bowmanville should be VIA rail service.

I agree, HWY 413 is a waste of tax dollars and should never be built.

All that said, I’m not even asking for hourly 2WAD service. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’d be happy if there was limited 2WAD service that would allow Milton residents to take the train on Saturday / Sunday to spend a day in the city or catch a sports event / concert and return home. All that would be required is hiring more crews (or pay overtime for existing crews), reactivate the third track already laid between Dixie and Erindale, and pay CP Rail for some weekend slots. Heck in the mid 90’s, not only was there all-day service to Erindale, but there was also a return 6:30pm train from Milton during weekday rush. That doesn’t seem like much to ask for the fastest growing city in Ontario!

In reality, this is all political. The government sees the Kitchener line as low hanging fruit. Easier negotiation with CN, then with CP, along with already owing some of the right of way, compared to Milton which they don’t own. I’m thinking Doug also assumes that Milton / Mississauga ridings are his by default, so no need to come through with better GO service. Promise the money, but never come through.

This is correct. It was the second busiest line despite its challenges. Somehow we are supposed to ignore that.

 

[crs1026]

Milton over Kitchener. No. Kitchener should have been kept as VIA only service.

And who would be in a position to impose this on VIA? It was never in the cards. The Big Move is a provincial strategy.

Barrie? Stouffville? No. Much too late now, but Barrie should have been VIA service.

Ditto

Line 1, 2, & 3 extensions are subways and service a different commuting pattern.

The point is, they cost dollars, just like Milton GO would. They have to be funded from the same envelope. Milton GO would kill at least one of these.

Bowmanville should be VIA rail service.

Getting a bit redundant here.

All that said, I’m not even asking for hourly 2WAD service. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’d be happy if there was limited 2WAD service that would allow Milton residents to take the train on Saturday / Sunday to spend a day in the city or catch a sports event / concert and return home. All that would be required is hiring more crews (or pay overtime for existing crews), reactivate the third track already laid between Dixie and Erindale, and pay CP Rail for some weekend slots. Heck in the mid 90’s, not only was there all-day service to Erindale, but there was also a return 6:30pm train from Milton during weekday rush. That doesn’t seem like much to ask for the fastest growing city in Ontario!

This is where some folks aren't getting it. The service on this line is not scalable. There is no prospect of modest incremental service growth. (There was no prospect of weekend service to Kitchener until ML signed their MOA, for the same reason.)

If the demand exists for full 2WAD, It would be reckless of CPKC to agree to adding a small number of trains knowing that this would only stoke demand, and ML would come back asking for more. Especially since the other lines are working towards 2WAD.... Milton would have to keep pace. I'm sure ML would love CP to over extend itself by taking on too much passenger and harming its freight business.... but CPKC shareholders must be reckoned with. CPKC's reluctance is entirely prudent.

Besides, no one will trust ML to begin an expansion program unless they can enforce its completion. Starting things and then deferring the remainder is government 101 - #Line 4, and the original DRL are examples. CPKC and CN are entirely justified to not be left holding the bag by making a substantial service ccommitment backed by only a small track expansion. I bet the Kitchener MOA has pretty tough cancellation penalties.

Plus, the operating factors which enabled the Erindale turns in past decades have changed. It really is a different railway than twenty years ago.

This is a situation where the line has to be built with enough added capacity to futureproof it. And that's why the price tag is as high as it is. It has to be pretty much all-or-nothing. The only incremental approach might be to build the central section first, and defer completing it all the way to Milton.

Possibly CPKC could be convinced to extend its Mon-Friday pattern to weekends, or run weekend event trains more often.....but that's not really helping much.

- Paul

 

[rdaner]

Confederation GO opens next Tuesday, 27 Oct.

 

[Northern Light]

I think the true point is that Milton is one of, if not, the fastest growing communities in Ontario. It has been for years, and we can’t even get limited weekend service. Another point is that prior to Covid, for a time, the Milton GO line was the 2nd busiest line outside the combined lakeshore service. The reason it has fallen to fourth is because investment has been provided in the other lines. I would guess that if the investment had been made into the Milton line instead of the Kitchener line, that Milton would still be the second busiest. I also imagine that 2WAD service between Toronto & Milton would not only take cars off the 401, but also the 403 and QEW. I mean we are talking about a line that cuts right through the middle of Mississauga.

I think its important here to note that merit aside, people here are tired of unending posts on this subject, another poster here regularly posts on how Mississauga is deprived of proper investment in transit.

That poster, tends to portray Mississauga as a victim of discrimination; and then posit an anti everywhere else in the GTA conspiracy against same.

Many here who do have 'some' influence with government have grown weary and impatient.

This is a forum filled with people who are pro-transit. They are pro transforming suburbia if not into urban paradise, then at least to somewhere that its plausible to live and/or work while being in a one car household, or in select areas, live car-free.

We're collectively people who do support more service for the Milton corridor and would love to see improvement, even incremental, and are happy to concede such investment is overdue.

But that doesn't mean we want to revisit that subject daily, weekly or monthly. Hearing the same thing over and over won't change the minds of the few who aren't supportive.

But may get under the skin of those who have been supportive enough to see them walk away from pushing for improvements.

Milton over Kitchener. No. Kitchener should have been kept as VIA only service. That now puts it as the Georgetown line. Suddenly the available ridership is less than Milton/Mississauga. Also, Milton is nowhere close to the QEW. Heck, Milton is already built up all the way down to past Britania. It takes a good 30 minutes now to drive from Milton to Bronte GO (which is south of the QEW).

Barrie? Stouffville? No. Much too late now, but Barrie should have been VIA service. Stouffville, no more deserving than Milton. Heck I’ll be selfish. Less deserving.

Now, the above is actually a great way to persuade people who have the ear of government to say 'don't bother with Milton'. I mean you just took aim a huge swath of people and said, 'You matter less than me, and should have less service'. Not a great tack when seeking support.

All-day service to Milton has a better chance of happening than a line two extension to Mississauga.

Yes it does, and it will happen, and long before any Line 2 extension at all, never mind to Mississauga.

How does the Mississauga LRT help anyone from the Meadowvale, Lisgar, Milton area get down to Toronto? Now if they had built the LRT along Derry instead of Hurontario, you may have been on to something.

It does go to Port Credit GO Station on the Lakeshore West GO Line which does have 2-way, all-day, 30M service to Toronto.

Side note here, Huronario LRT was an investment prioritized by the City of Mississauga, not some outside group imposing it; its also not the only investment in Mississauga in the last 2 decades............

There was the Transitway. There was also considerable investment in and improvement of the Lakeshore West Line which runs through the City.

Hamilton already has all day service to West Harbor. May not be downtown Hamilton, but it is still Hamilton.

The Lakeshore West GO Line may not be north-west Mississauga, but its still Mississauga. (see how that argument works...)

Frequent Niagara service will never happen due to the canal being in the way.

Not that the Canal isn't an obstacle, it is. But very large investments will be made in that corridor in due course. But to make you feel better, Milton will come first.

.I agree, HWY 413 is a waste of tax dollars and should never be built.

100%

All that said, I’m not even asking for hourly 2WAD service. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I’d be happy if there was limited 2WAD service that would allow Milton residents to take the train on Saturday / Sunday to spend a day in the city or catch a sports event / concert and return home. All that would be required is hiring more crews (or pay overtime for existing crews), reactivate the third track already laid between Dixie and Erindale, and pay CP Rail for some weekend slots. Heck in the mid 90’s, not only was there all-day service to Erindale, but there was also a return 6:30pm train from Milton during weekday rush. That doesn’t seem like much to ask for the fastest growing city in Ontario!

I agree. I know Paul ( @crs1026 ) differs. But I think there's ample capacity to support it. He is right it would trigger greater demand for more, which I see a feature, not a bug.

In reality, this is all political. The government sees the Kitchener line as low hanging fruit. Easier negotiation with CN, then with CP, along with already owing some of the right of way, compared to Milton which they don’t own. I’m thinking Doug also assumes that Milton / Mississauga ridings are his by default, so no need to come through with better GO service. Promise the money, but never come through.

Share you views w/the Premier, you can reach him. (or his office) but staff will read and tabulate the subjects of incoming correspondence.

Elsewise, let me tell you, Milton is a bit more advanced that you think. But no, that doesn't mean its happening or will happen imminently; only that the stage is set. Its the Premier's call as to what happens when

 

[dowlingm]

I was trying to find a piece on the redevelopment and funding of the NF NY Amtrak station and came across this interesting piece.

1.5 million for refurbishing Niagara Falls GO/VIA station… written in 2019

Falls train station to be redeveloped into ‘one-stop shop’ for transit

A $1.5-million provincial commitment will help redevelop the outdated train station in downtown Niagara Falls into a “multi-modal” hub that will become a “one-stop shop” for transportation, says Mayor Jim Diodati.

www.stcatharinesstandard.ca

Did the province ever spend that promised money?