[EnviroTO]

The vehicles on Line 6 are deficient? See Citadis Spirit under Ottawa experiences from July 2020 onwards. There is something not right with the engineering of the interface between the carbodies and the rail, and you can feel it while you are riding the Finch West LRT. At no time does a Finch West LRT glide more smoothly than the Eglinton LRT vehicles.

 

[dullturtle06]

After riding line 5 today. I can say for certain that the Citadis Spirits are garbage. It was a mistake for Metrolinx to switch from the Flexity's to to Spirits. The Flexitys have better acceleration, are so smooth to ride. I remember riding line 6 with it constantly vibrating like the wheels were disintegrating underneath me.

 

[nfitz]

Any hypothesis why the surface sections of Line 5 is much faster than the surface section of line 6?

In addition to the vehicles (I wonder if it's too late to sell the Line 6 and Line 10 cars to Ottawa and buy more Flexities), I think there may be competence issues with the consortium as well as a lack of sufficient testing.

Testing of the the Line 5 cars on the surface section started almost 5 years ago, back in May 2021, by which point the track was all laid from the portal near Laird to (near?) Kennedy.

Line 6 however didn't have all the track down until mid-2023. With the first trains along the length of the line in May 2024 - only 18 months before opening.

(I'm not sure why TTC approved Line 6 opening, but held off on Line 5, which Metrolinx wanted to open at the same time, only a few months ago).

 

[McGillicuddy]

After the trouble Ottawa has had with their Citaldis Spirits, persuading them to buy a bunch of unwanted spares would be tantamount to selling them a bag of magic beans.

 

[Bojaxs]

I was under the impression the Flexities ceased to exist after Alstom bought out Bombardier's train division?

Edmonton wanted more of them for their Valley line, but couldn't get any, and so they had to order trains from Hyundai Rotem instead.

The Citadis Spirits are garbage because Alstom didn't even want to make them. They're a "Frankenstein" train they slapped together to appease Ottawa City Council's silly demands, and to try and secure the O-train contract. Read up on the origins of the train. It's ridiculous!

 

[Amare]

I was under the impression the Flexities ceased to exist after Alstom bought out Bombardier's train division?

Edmonton wanted more of them for their Valley line, but couldn't get any, and so they had to order trains from Hyundai Rotem instead.

The Citadis Spirits are garbage because Alstom didn't even want to make them. They're a "Frankenstein" train they slapped together to appease Ottawa City Council's silly demands, and to try and secure the O-train contract. Read up on the origin of the trains, it's ridiculous.

But yet Metrolinx and the Provincial government is more than happy to buy more of that deficient product known as the Citadis Spirit, in large part because they are "providing local jobs" (the Brampton assembly line).

If Metrolinx actually did their jobs properly, they would've be throwing red flags all over before they were put in place for the Hurontario Line but that ship has long sailed. So now Ottawa, FInch West, Hurontario, and even Hamilton will be stuck using problematic vehicles all because no one wants to do their job in forcing Alstom to make changes.

Hamilton can still have their vehicle's changed, but Metrolinx seemingly has no interest in doing so.

 

[EnviroTO]

Edmonton wanted more of them for their Valley line, but couldn't get any, and so they had to order trains from Hyundai Rotem instead.

Are you sure? The TTC expanded its order of Flexity Outlooks after the purchase. I would assume that Alstom has the rights to continue to build them and the Thunder Bay and Kingston operations still exist do they not?

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Are you sure? The TTC expanded its order of Flexity Outlooks after the purchase. I would assume that Alstom has the rights to continue to build them and the Thunder Bay and Kingston operations still exist do they not?

The TTC order was an exercised option that existed in the initial order contract. Alstom still has a few contracts that have options left for the Flexities but other than those Alstom has no incentive to keep making the Flexity line in North America, even if it is proving to be superior.

 

[nfitz]

The TTC order was an exercised option that existed in the initial order contract.

True - but the 2020 add on of 17 streetcars (with an option of 47 more at the same pricing that TTC took up in 2021) was year after the timeframe for the original options had expired - and thus was done at new, significantly higher, pricing. I"m not sure Bombardier was still required to accept the option - but they and the union were campaigning heavily to get it.

Alstom still has a few contracts that have options left for the Flexities but other than those Alstom has no incentive to keep making the Flexity line in North America, even if it is proving to be superior.

Based on the Citadis crap, I'd say there's a huge incentive to offering the cheaper Flexity vehicles - because I don't seeing Citadis ever winning an open competition again in Ontario (assuming the Ottawa competition was open).

I'm not sure if there'd be Flexity options left for Metrolinx. Metrolinx's Flexity order was actually an option of the original TTC order. The history is that in 2009 TTC awarded Bombardier with a contract for 204 Flexity cars, with an option for 400 more. But later TTC transferred 300 of those option cars to Metrolinx (and in 2020 used of 60 of their remaning 100 options).

Metrolinx then used these options ordered 182 cars for Lines 3, 5, 6, and 7. Presumably they have 118 cars left (minus some they optioned to Waterloo, but after Metrolinx in 2016 cancelled Bombardier's contract for 106 of these cars (Line 3, 6, and 7) - and then lost the lawsuit against Bombardier, then who knows what's left of those options. In December 2017 Metrolinx settled with Bombardier, and I assume that the optional cars are a confidential settlement document. My guess is that Metrolinx would have to start from scratch.

Though by this stage of the Line 5 extension to Renforth - which I believe they announced almost 7 years ago - they surely know what the new cars are going to be. There's no indication that these are part of the 4 major contracts they've awarded (Guideway, two tunnels and "Stations, rails and systems". Do you have any idea what's with the Line 5 Extension rolling stock @smallspy?

Ironically, a lot of Metrolinx's arguments about cancelling the Flexity order were about quality control.

Are you sure? The TTC expanded its order of Flexity Outlooks after the purchase.

Good question. The Alstom/Bombardier purchase closed in January 2021. Which is after the TTC took up 17 more streetcars, but before they took up the 43 remaining at the same pricing.

What is for sure, is that Metrolinx's pricing has gone up in smoke, both because of the lawsuit, and the elapsed time. But if Metrolinx wants more Flexities, then I'd think Alstom would be crazy not to quote them a price!

Certainly Alstom has been offering Flexity vehicles in Europe long after the merger. For example the 2024 deal for 15 Flexity cars for Graz, Austria. These are different than any of Graz's 85 other cars (from 3 different manufacturers!).

 

[smallspy]

Do you have any idea what's with the Line 5 Extension rolling stock @smallspy?

Yeah. There has be zero movement on it to date by Metrolinx. No one is really sure if it is even on their radar.

And people are starting to sweat now, because the tendering process should have probably started a year ago.

Dan

 

[duffo]

Yeah. There has be zero movement on it to date by Metrolinx. No one is really sure if it is even on their radar.

And people are starting to sweat now, because the tendering process should have probably started a year ago.

Dan

Flexities have been retired, and having just overcome all sorts of train-related issues to open Line 5, I wouldn't be shocked if they are anxious about running a mixed fleet and a bit paralyzed about next steps.

 

[dowlingm]

Ultimately light rail vehicles are an assembled kit of parts from a global supply chain, and even vehicles with the same name might have some differences simply because a manufacturer of doors or whatever went out of business.

To me, it would make sense to prefer Alstom Flexities for the Crosstown West order, because:
1. Given the recent completion of the TTC add on order, it doesn't seem to me long enough to deem the skills and supply chain atrophied
2. Edmonton didn't have to worry about keeping workers on Alberta assembly lines employed
3. Citadis, while locally built, possibly not an entirely unsalvageable design, and still in the frame for Hurontario, now has two strikes in the public mind
4. No concerns about different jacking points in the Mount Dennis MSF
5. No need to recertify an entirely different vehicle with yard and tunnel signal/automation systems

I note that Hyundai Rotem are supplying Edmonton with high floor cars to replace their oldest Siemens LRVs - I wonder if the low floor order was aggressively promoted to get their foot in the door for the current and future high floor contracts.

 

[Bordercollie]

I must say that line 6 is 100x worse than line 5.
The line 5 cars are smooth and don't feel like they are grinding the rail.
Speeds are much faster than buses unlike line 6.
Using Citidas rolling stock would be a huge mistake for the extension.

But the lines are operated by different companies so that might be some of the differences in how they operate.

My only nitpick is that if it announced the street after the station name. That would help.

 

[Obsidian]

I must say that line 6 is 100x worse than line 5.
The line 5 cars are smooth and don't feel like they are grinding the rail.
Speeds are much faster than buses unlike line 6.
Using Citidas rolling stock would be a huge mistake for the extension.

But the lines are operated by different companies so that might be some of the differences in how they operate.

My only nitpick is that if it announced the street after the station name. That would help.

The lines are operated by the same company, the TTC

 

[Bordercollie]

The lines are operated by the same company, the TTC

Crosslinx Transit Solutions (CTS) is the consortium responsible for the 30-year maintenance and lifecycle activities for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT (Line 5), which officially opened for service on February 8, 2026.

Vs Mosaic