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Fred.S said:
These switch issues seem to highlight to me some questionable design choices on this line that I noticed when I first rode it.

Departing Finch West station, the LRT immediately climbs up to a signalized intersection (Romfield Lane), with the exposed track switch right before. Couldn't they have extended the tunnel past here to avoid the intersection (it has no stop) and then keep the track switch underground and protected from the elements?
Click to expand...
It does seem an odd choice to put your most weather-prone components outside when you have underground and covered sections.
 
hawc said:
^^^
Vision Zero y'all.

Not a single accident can ever occur.

To get there, let's treat everyone like babies and make sure the whole city shall never move faster than 30km/h.

Hopefully soon it will be 20 km/h.

And then eventually 6km/h... walking pace.

Shoot, someone could still trip. Maybe everyone should just stay in their homes.

But, but, but Europe....

You brought this on yourselves people! Enjoy your 30km/h city.

:p
Click to expand...

Lol its Vision Zero. Zero Vision is an amazing rephrasing of that.

There's only one way to get to literal Zero accidents ever. 0 km/h trains.

Just park em and call it a day. Maybe they can be shelters in the cold for the unhoused.
 
robmausser said:
Lol its Vision Zero. Zero Vision is an amazing rephrasing of that.

There's only one way to get to literal Zero accidents ever. 0 km/h trains.

Just park em and call it a day. Maybe they can be shelters in the cold for the unhoused.
Click to expand...

That also cuts operating costs to zero! Careful, talk like that will get you fast-tracked to the Party Bureau, Comrade Mausser.

Only Stalin himself could match your talent for saving the People money.
 
Westey said:
I would add the SRT to the list. With a bit of promotion, Toronto did have an example of a mini-metro where passenger volumes are not as high but speed is important.
I am sure that most people in Toronto did not even know that Vancouver has elevated transit. It could have easily been argued that the SRT Mark I was equivalent to a Nokia Flip Phone while the Vancouver SkyTrain or Canada Line was the i-phone 5, or whatever was new at that time. Nobody cared how the vehicle got its power or that it was shorter or that it was elevated (the most popular part of the SRT was near Brimley where it's elevated), but they did care about speed and reliability.
Click to expand...
The SRT was another missmanaged project from the start
 
robmausser said:
I mean no one has to look further than Vancouver and the Sky Train.

Everyone who says the SRT was crap clearly haven't seen whats possible with the technology when its managed properly.
Click to expand...

Pardon the nitpick, but I think what @Bordercollie meant was that the SRT replaced an earlier (cheaper) Line 2 extension to Scarborough Town Centre, and kind of replaced GO-ALRT. A network of elevated LIM metro would've made sense. A short line like the SRT was decent, but not optimal.
 
urbanclient said:
Pardon the nitpick, but I think what @Bordercollie meant was that the SRT replaced an earlier (cheaper) Line 2 extension to Scarborough Town Centre, and kind of replaced GO-ALRT. A network of elevated LIM metro would've made sense. A short line like the SRT was decent, but not optimal.
Click to expand...
Ok hold on that's not at all what happened. Firstly while a Line 2 extension to Scarborough was considered it was quickly shot down after the bill for the 1 stop extension to Kennedy came in. That extension alone cost nearly as much as the extensions to Warden and Islington 12 years prior and at the time Metro was still responsible for the bulk of construction costs. This dramatic cost increase shouldn't have been a surprise considering the Spadina Extension to Wilson came in at around $200 Million and blew way over budget. While the Province could pitch in they had no obligation too and there wasn't a set funding model like the 1/3 split we have today. It should be no surprise then that by the time the 80's came around Metro and the TTC wanted out of the subway game and looked at LRT as an alternative since without provincial support Metro alone couldn't afford to build any more subways. Secondly what the SRT replaced was the originally an LRT (or "High-Speed Streetcar" as it was called) using coupled together ALRV's running from Kennedy to Milner & Sheppard (with a possible branch line to Markham & Progress). This would have been replicated out in Etobicoke with the Etobicoke RT with a line running from Kipling to Pearson with a possible branch to York University utilizing the hydro corridors in the area. The SRT change was imposed on us by the Province as they needed a guinea pig for their ICTS trains and after Hamilton told them to pound sand they came here and "reminded" Metro and the TTC that they were paying for 2/3 of the TTC operating budget. That said the province did fully pay for the conversion and the eventual rebuild of the Kennedy platforms so it cost the TTC and Metro nothing upfront.

Finally ALRT had nothing to do with any of this as that was a seperate provincial project. The ALRT trains were not LIM based but were conventional using standard traction motors powered by an overhead catenary and would have been completly automated. The only similarity here was that the ALRT trains used the same model of vehicle as the SRT trains, only the ALRT trains were of similar dimension to the TTC's subway trains (75' long, 6 doors per car, 2 car married sets coupled into a 6 car train, 2x2 transverse seating, capacity of about 200 people (156 seated) per 2 car set (1,200 passengers across a 6 car consist), automated using SelTrac CBTC, and finally powered by conventional 600v DC motors (4 per car) drawing power from a 25kv AC powered catenary). Basically ALRT was Toronto's REM before the REM. What killed was the combination of Bill Davis retiring, Frank Miller immediately abandoning the idea for whatever ungodly reason, and finally David Peterson deciding it would be easier and cheaper to just expand the pre-existing GO network then build something new. I'll admit the SRT was pointed to since it wasn't living up to expectations but this comparison ignored the fundamental difference between the trains. The SRT trains were a brand new technology that had never been done before at that scale using LIM which was a bespoke system at the time; while the ALRT trains were just conventional EMU's that drove themselves. Peterson did also say that he didn't want the bi-level coaches tossed aside as they were only like 10 years old at the time even though this ignores the fact that the ALRT Northern Line was the first to be built and wouldn't have displaced any bi-levels since it was a brand new line. Secondly the Southern Line which was to be a full conversion of the Lake Shore lines wouldn't have been built for another 20-30 years so by the time it was done the bi-levels would have been ready for retirement anyways. Basically the Liberals didn't want to pay for it which is also why they killed Network 2011; although they conveniently had enough money to funnel into the Highway 407 project.

Also if you are wondering I believe the 8 stop extensions to Warden and Islington cost about $76 Million while the 1 stop extension to Kennedy cost about $74 Million. If you include the 1 stop extension to Kipling (about $36 Million) then these two stops alone cost Metro around $100 Million. So you can see how subway construction in Toronto was unsustainable without provincial help.
 
Last edited:
JSF-1 said:
Ok hold on that's not at all what happened. Firstly while a Line 2 extension to Scarborough was considered it was quickly shot down after the bill for the 1 stop extension to Kennedy came in. That extension alone cost more then the extensions to Warden and Islington 12 years prior and at the time Metro was still responsible for the bulk of construction costs. While the Province could pitch in they had no obligation too and there wasn't a set funding model like the 1/3 split we have today. Secondly what the SRT replaced was the originally an LRT (or "High-Speed Streetcar" as it was called) using coupled together ALRV's running from Kennedy to Milner & Sheppard (with a possible branch line to Markham & Progress). This would have been replicated out in Etobicoke with the Etobicoke RT with a line running from Kipling to Pearson with a possible branch to York University utilizing the hydro corridors in the area. The SRT change was imposed on us by the Province as they needed a guinea pig for their ICTS trains and after Hamilton told them to pound sand they came here and "reminded" Metro and the TTC that they were paying for 2/3 of the TTC operating budget. That said the province did fully pay for the conversion and the eventual rebuild of the Kennedy platforms so it cost the TTC and Metro nothing upfront.

Finally ALRT had nothing to do with any of this as that was a seperate provincial project. The ALRT trains were not LIM based but were conventional using standard traction motors powered by an overhead catenary and would have been completly automated. The only similarity here was that the ALRT trains used the same model of vehicle as the SRT trains, only the ALRT trains were of similar dimension to the TTC's subway trains (75' long, 6 doors per car, 2 car married sets coupled into a 6 car train, 2x2 tranverse seating, capacity of about 200 people (156 seated) per 2 car set (1,200 passengers across a 6 car consist), automated using SelTrac CBTC, and finally powered by conventional 600v DC motors (4 per car) drawing power from a 25kv AC powered catenary). Basically ALRT was Toronto's REM before the REM. What killed was the combination of Bill Davis retiring, Frank Miller immedaitly abandoning the idea for whatever ungodly reason, and finally David Peterson deciding it would be to just expand the pre-existing GO network then build something new. I'll admit the SRT was pointed to since it wasn't living up to expectations but this comparison ignored the fundemental difference between the trains. The SRT trains were a brand new technology that had never been done before at that scale using LIM which was a bespoke system at the time; while the ALRT trains were just conventional EMU's that drove themselves. Peterson did also say that he didn't wan the bi-level coaches tossed aside as they were only like 10 years old at the time even though this ignores the fact that the ALRT Northern Line was the first to be built and wouldn't have displaced any bi-levels since it was a brand new line. Secondly the Southern Line which was to be a full conversion of the Lake Shore lines wouldn't have been built for another 20-30 years so by the time it was done the bi-levels would have been ready for retirment anyways. Basically the Liberals didn't want to pay for it which is also why they killed Network 2011; although they convniently had enough money to funnel into the Highway 407 project.
Click to expand...
Appreciate the nuance and you picking up the slack. I tried to keep my post as short as possible.
 
JSF-1 said:
Ok hold on that's not at all what happened. Firstly while a Line 2 extension to Scarborough was considered it was quickly shot down after the bill for the 1 stop extension to Kennedy came in. That extension alone cost nearly as much as the extensions to Warden and Islington 12 years prior and at the time Metro was still responsible for the bulk of construction costs. This dramatic cost increase shouldn't have been a surprise considering the Spadina Extension to Wilson came in at around $200 Million and blew way over budget. While the Province could pitch in they had no obligation too and there wasn't a set funding model like the 1/3 split we have today. It should be no surprise then that by the time the 80's came around Metro and the TTC wanted out of the subway game and looked at LRT as an alternative since without provincial support Metro alone couldn't afford to build any more subways. Secondly what the SRT replaced was the originally an LRT (or "High-Speed Streetcar" as it was called) using coupled together ALRV's running from Kennedy to Milner & Sheppard (with a possible branch line to Markham & Progress). This would have been replicated out in Etobicoke with the Etobicoke RT with a line running from Kipling to Pearson with a possible branch to York University utilizing the hydro corridors in the area. The SRT change was imposed on us by the Province as they needed a guinea pig for their ICTS trains and after Hamilton told them to pound sand they came here and "reminded" Metro and the TTC that they were paying for 2/3 of the TTC operating budget. That said the province did fully pay for the conversion and the eventual rebuild of the Kennedy platforms so it cost the TTC and Metro nothing upfront.

Finally ALRT had nothing to do with any of this as that was a seperate provincial project. The ALRT trains were not LIM based but were conventional using standard traction motors powered by an overhead catenary and would have been completly automated. The only similarity here was that the ALRT trains used the same model of vehicle as the SRT trains, only the ALRT trains were of similar dimension to the TTC's subway trains (75' long, 6 doors per car, 2 car married sets coupled into a 6 car train, 2x2 transverse seating, capacity of about 200 people (156 seated) per 2 car set (1,200 passengers across a 6 car consist), automated using SelTrac CBTC, and finally powered by conventional 600v DC motors (4 per car) drawing power from a 25kv AC powered catenary). Basically ALRT was Toronto's REM before the REM. What killed was the combination of Bill Davis retiring, Frank Miller immediately abandoning the idea for whatever ungodly reason, and finally David Peterson deciding it would be to just expand the pre-existing GO network then build something new. I'll admit the SRT was pointed to since it wasn't living up to expectations but this comparison ignored the fundamental difference between the trains. The SRT trains were a brand new technology that had never been done before at that scale using LIM which was a bespoke system at the time; while the ALRT trains were just conventional EMU's that drove themselves. Peterson did also say that he didn't wan the bi-level coaches tossed aside as they were only like 10 years old at the time even though this ignores the fact that the ALRT Northern Line was the first to be built and wouldn't have displaced any bi-levels since it was a brand new line. Secondly the Southern Line which was to be a full conversion of the Lake Shore lines wouldn't have been built for another 20-30 years so by the time it was done the bi-levels would have been ready for retirement anyways. Basically the Liberals didn't want to pay for it which is also why they killed Network 2011; although they conveniently had enough money to funnel into the Highway 407 project.

Also if you are wondering I believe the 8 stop extensions to Warden and Islington cost about $76 Million while the 1 stop extension to Kennedy cost about $74 Million. If you include the 1 stop extension to Kipling (about $36 Million) then these two stops alone cost Metro around $100 Million. So you can see how subway construction in Toronto was unsustainable without provincial help.
Click to expand...

Yes, I've always suspected the reason that the SRT was crap compared to the Skytrain was because it was basically forced onto the TTC and the city. They didn't want it and so they mistreated it.
 
robmausser said:
Yes, I've always suspected the reason that the SRT was crap compared to the Skytrain was because it was basically forced onto the TTC and the city. They didn't want it and so they mistreated it.
Click to expand...
That's a big part of it, no doubt.

But a large part of it was that they had to shoehorn the line into a corridor that was never designed for it. The curves at Kennedy were bare-minimum radius for the rolling stock, and even the curve at Ellesmere would likely have been made larger if they had the chance to plan the line from scratch, rather than use the corridor that had already been allocated to it.

Dan
 
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