Greenspace
Senior Member
Phase 1 generated $3.2B in economic activity. Let's just round up and say public dollars around $600m for the arena, plus other CRL projects for Downtown.
- Thread starter Daveography
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Barnaby
Senior Member
Phase 1 is the only reason I live DT instead of Garneau.
Oilgasms
New Member
Ah Right. Thanks for sharing!
I guess I'm wondering why do we need another influx of cash for OEG when the momentum should be supposedly there from Phase 1? Did Stationlands get government funding? I get that the event centre will be owned by The City, but what about the residential being built?
Genuinely curious, I'm no land developer :]
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Glenco
Senior Member
The city of Edmonton is like a very, very bad arsonist when it comes to downtown. They start a fire and walk away thinking the job is done and the fire goes out. Then they come back and try, try again.
Kosy123
Senior Member
Technically Stationlands went ahead because of the CRL funding for the pedway connection. However, one could argue that's not a direct subsidy but infrastructure investment to get the ball rolling.
The one argument that could be made to directly fund Ice District Phase II is the ripple effects it could have like Phase I did, since that was a big vote of confidence in the area and I think other developers started building stuff like Encore because of it.
Ethically, not the biggest fan of the direct subsidy for OEG, that money should go to public infrastructure in an ideal world rather than OEG. From an ROI perspective? I hate to say it, but it makes sense. OEG putting more shovels in the ground means something is happening downtown and perception trumps (lol) reality. Sure other developers like Qualico see the potential and are putting cash where their thoughts are in Stationlands, but it's not the same weight as the almighty Daryl Katz building something a magical village of ice and snow.
TAS
Senior Member
Possibly another thing that could have been done with some of that city money to boost downtown was a similar program to what incentivized the previous 9 residential projects dt in 2021 - The Parks, Falcon, Mercury, Stationlands etc. Then that money is going to multiple developers instead of just OEG.
There would still be money left over to put some towards the event park.
Maybe the money could have been a catalyst to a lot more projects than what OEG is planning.
Kosy123
Senior Member
Not sure if we'll ever get something like that from the province sadly, but hey if the Feds want to do something like that, as part of an extension or addition to the Housing Accelerator Fund, it would be great (looking at you Mark Carney, who I weirdly hope scans this forum once in a while lol)
jason403
Active Member
If you ignore opportunity costs, lol
David A
Senior Member
Yes, but a 5% return on the 600 million would have been, 30 million, so in comparison 3.2 billion looks very good. I'm not aware of any other opportunity at the time for of over 5x what was invested.
jason403
Active Member
I just mean economic activity is not necessarily economic benefits. Ice district seems alright, so I have no complaints with the product.
However, if it wasn't built, city of edmonton was still building a tower somewhere else. Stantec was still building their HQ somewhere else. A hotel was likely still incoming (probably not JW Marriott though). Residential units would still be built (probably not to this height though).
So again, economic activity is good, but if ice district wasn't there, a majority of the investment would still occur, just not in the current form. So although correct the $x of economic activity occurred in the ice district, the majority would have happened anyway.
The actual impact of ice district is far less, and an argument could be made slight negative impact due to end funds of development ending up in Katz's wallet outside of edmonton as opposed to a local developer.
However, if it wasn't built, city of edmonton was still building a tower somewhere else. Stantec was still building their HQ somewhere else. A hotel was likely still incoming (probably not JW Marriott though). Residential units would still be built (probably not to this height though).
So again, economic activity is good, but if ice district wasn't there, a majority of the investment would still occur, just not in the current form. So although correct the $x of economic activity occurred in the ice district, the majority would have happened anyway.
The actual impact of ice district is far less, and an argument could be made slight negative impact due to end funds of development ending up in Katz's wallet outside of edmonton as opposed to a local developer.
David A
Senior Member
Its hard to argue for against a hypothetical of what would have happened. Its like saying if I didn't get this good job, then I would have gotten another equally good job. Maybe, or maybe not.
jason403
Active Member
Fair enough, but stantec and CoE were reviewing multiple proposals, so those are easy ones to verify. It's just the credit needs to go to institutions demanding the space in those instance and not the developer. They are the ones that create the economic activity, not Ice District. That's the only disconnect here.
David A
Senior Member
I can agree with that, much like blame, credit often should be shared. Of the proposals, presumably the best option was chosen for everyone involved.
Just as a seller or a buyer alone can't take all the credit for a transaction, the economic activity was a result of everyone's involvement.
Just as a seller or a buyer alone can't take all the credit for a transaction, the economic activity was a result of everyone's involvement.
BASE
Active Member
Hard to compare the value of 1 off projects and plans to a planned district. Not easy to evaluate the value of the public space in Ice District or the likelihood of a grocer like City Market setting up without a larger development at play. I see similar opportunities in 2.0 with a larger vision vs. individual projects and groups working independently on smaller parcels.
archited
Senior Member
^^^ Well beyond that -- Downtown Edmonton got a huge boost that is still to this day providing benefits in additional businesses and tenancies from the relocation of the hockey rink downtown. And the vision to have that facility conjoined to the other elements that you refer to is why it is major. Consolidated and conjoined developments are always more architecturally