[thommyjo]

The bail system isn't as bad as sensationalists on this forum seem to believe. The boiling point is seemingly a result of a change in society after the pandemic that thinks they understand everything about a system or issue without really understanding anything. The notion that the system is broken is also a logical fallacy. There are other factors than the justice system - pharmaceutical drug use has skyrocketed exponentially in the last several years. There is a vast separation of how the law operates and how the public thinks it operates. As for bail:

First, there are multiple forms of bail, each varying in restrictiveness. These include release without conditions, release with conditions, recognizances (a promise to pay if conditions are breached), recognizances with deposit, and surety releases. It’s not simply a matter of “cash bail.”

Second, in most cases, bail is granted through mutual consent of the Crown and defence. The accused typically does not need to appear before a judge for a contested show cause hearing to secure interim release. In many cases, bail is straightforward and not all that risky.

Third, when the accused is charged with a non-violent offence (most summary or hybrid offences), the Crown bears the burden of justifying any restrictions on the accused’s liberty, including pre-trial detention. Conversely, where the charge involves a violent offence or a special designated offence (treason), the default position is that bail is denied unless the accused can show cause for their release. Relevant prior criminal history, risk of flight, strength of the Crown’s case, and public safety are core considerations in determining whether bail is granted or restricted. Careers “criminals” wouldn’t often succeed in a show cause hearing.

Fourth, bail isn’t only a matter of humanitarian concern, it’s essential to the proper functioning of the criminal justice system. Pre-trial detention is expensive, strains judicial and administrative resources, and creates logistical difficulties for COs. It increases trial delays/limits access to counsel, overwhelms correctional facilities (which means more staff turnover and lockdowns), results in more civil proceedings (habeas corpus applications, judicial review applications actions, regulatory complaints, civil suits). Bail also allows accused persons to continue working, caring for dependents, and fulfilling other legal and personal obligations while awaiting trial.

Finally, the vast majority of individuals released on bail do not commit further, non-administration of justice criminal offences. Most breaches involve violations of bail conditions….for example, someone charged with impaired driving who is ordered not to drink alcohol may be found drinking and thus breach their conditions, even if they do not commit a new offence. The career criminal scenario isn’t actually happening in most cases. When breach of bail does happen, it is largely not showing up to court on time or failing to report to a police officer.

Hopefully no one here is subject to being falsely charged with a criminal offence.The Charter is important, more so if you are incarcerated via pretrial detention. Your access to mount a defence decreases significantly.

It's not just snapping ones fingers and saying bail needs to be fixed; the problem is more nuanced and complex than that. The point of my original post was that you can't just fix the justice system easily nor is it the only problem. Drugs of today aren't the same as even 20 years ago. There are other roots, particularly the lack of control of drugs by multiple border agencies in different countries that will continue to exacerbate the issue. Until we figure out how to control the flow of meth and fentanyl, there are going to be problem people in downtown's across the country. Toss the existing ones in jail and there will be new people to replace them. Likewise, cut off part of a criminal enterprise and it will be replaced. Instead of alcohol, crack, weed, etc, we now have meth, oxy, fentanyl and other pharmaceutical drugs that have much more extreme human responses. If we truly want to fix this issue, people are really going to need to completely understand the issue thoroughly to ensure we fix the right things instead of pointing the finger at things that aren't necessarily the issue.

Not disagreeing with you about the nuances, complexities, or importance of ensuring people are cared for while moving through the courts.

But let me ask this: police associations across the country have been sounding the alarm for years and if you ask almost any officer, they’ll gladly rant about the issues with the bail system. Way too many criminals are out on the streets who shouldn’t be, and way too many are re-offending over and over. My brother in law arrests the same few dozen people multiple times a week on stony plan road. People with a record longer than a Walmart receipt of drugs, weapons, assaults, B&Es, etc.

What’s the solution for that? Are all the police sensationalizing?

And when dozens of reports of violent assaults, rapes, and murders show that the criminal had numerous prior convictions, or was out on bail for a similar crime committed just days or weeks before, what are we to make of that? You can’t look the victims’ families in the eyes and say the system isn’t broken.

Group protests bail-release of Edmonton man charged with sexual assault - Edmonton | Globalnews.ca

Around 100 people in Edmonton's McQueen neighbourhood protested Saturday against the bail-release of a man charged with sexual assault.

globalnews.ca

What we know about Justin Bone, the man accused of killing two men in Edmonton's Chinatown

Court records show Bone has a long history of criminal behaviour, including for prior alleged offences in the Chinatown area

edmontonjournal.com

'A wrong message': Edmonton mother of slain daughter fighting against accused killer being released on bail

Jodi Dunn is fighting to keep her daughter's accused killer, who was granted bail with conditions, behind bars.

edmontonjournal.com

GUNTER: Ultra-lenient judicial system contributed to Edmonton security guard's slaying

GUNTER:

edmontonsun.com

 

[The_Cat]

If the police hit someone with a baton or use harsh language, it hits the media.

 

[David A]

I've mentioned before that many foreigners who come to Canada must think our government is crazy to tolerate such lawlessness and disorder. Allowing situations like "safe supply" and easy access to class A drugs is crazy - what did they think would happen? Also, millions of people get dealt a bad hand in life but don't decide to become drug addicted homeless criminals who threaten people and destroy property. Also, millions of people who do get addicted to drugs and alcohol are able to recover and lead productive lives. I have very little sympathy for people who make little or no attempt to take advantage of the many recovery programs available to them in a overly tolerant society like Canada. Also, I have zero respect for "progressive" policy makers who think they know better then everyone and push ridiculous, harmful, nonsensical policies that have resulted in chaos and social destruction in Canadian society. The Liberals "catch and release" crime policies have been nothing short of a disaster for Canada and it boggles the mind that this awful "elbows up" government could dupe so many Canadians so easily and get reelected because of "orange man bad". This country deserves the government it gets.

The lawlessless and disorder is tolerated in some parts of the city like downtown. How long would it be put up with if this happened in Glenora or Riverbend? This is why I am so angry our selective policing.

 

[inclusion]

Not disagreeing with you about the nuances, complexities, or importance of ensuring people are cared for while moving through the courts.

But let me ask this: police associations across the country have been sounding the alarm for years and if you ask almost any officer, they’ll gladly rant about the issues with the bail system. Way too many criminals are out on the streets who shouldn’t be, and way too many are re-offending over and over. My brother in law arrests the same few dozen people multiple times a week on stony plan road. People with a record longer than a Walmart receipt of drugs, weapons, assaults, B&Es, etc.

What’s the solution for that? Are all the police sensationalizing?

And when dozens of reports of violent assaults, rapes, and murders show that the criminal had numerous prior convictions, or was out on bail for a similar crime committed just days or weeks before, what are we to make of that? You can’t look the victims’ families in the eyes and say the system isn’t broken.

Group protests bail-release of Edmonton man charged with sexual assault - Edmonton | Globalnews.ca

Around 100 people in Edmonton's McQueen neighbourhood protested Saturday against the bail-release of a man charged with sexual assault.

globalnews.ca

What we know about Justin Bone, the man accused of killing two men in Edmonton's Chinatown

Court records show Bone has a long history of criminal behaviour, including for prior alleged offences in the Chinatown area

edmontonjournal.com

'A wrong message': Edmonton mother of slain daughter fighting against accused killer being released on bail

Jodi Dunn is fighting to keep her daughter's accused killer, who was granted bail with conditions, behind bars.

edmontonjournal.com

GUNTER: Ultra-lenient judicial system contributed to Edmonton security guard's slaying

GUNTER:

edmontonsun.com

I've stated the differences in offences already and how they can be treated differently. I don't think police officers are necessarily sensationalizing; however, their individual experiences with cases that go wrong are different than what the general public sees, particularly when they feel the system fails a victim. It happens. Humans are flawed by nature and those flaws can be missed. Does that mean the entire system is broken? No. Your brother-in-law is a police officer, so you are going to have an inherent bias if that is the only perspective you are hearing. Do you also have friends that are crown prosecutors or defence attorneys? Law professors? I'd encourage you to seek multiple perspectives on the matter if you are able to. Like anything in life, having a broad perspective on an issue is important. The media definitely highlights a perspective on bail and how it is failing, but broader statistics on recidivism aren't necessarily as bleak as pointing to individual articles highlighting terrible homicides may suggest. As with any complex system, akin to Health and Social Services, there are always improvements that can be made, but I think it is also alarmist to say that that the justice system is completely broken and failing.

I will say that Canlii released a report last year on the ongoing issues with the bail system and recommendations. It is a good read and explains why mistakes can be made; it isn't always black and white. Further reading on current law, particularly linking to reading on the bail system is here.

Anyway, that is probably as far as I will go on the matter here. Happy to discuss further in PMs if you would like. If not, that is okay too.

 

[buildings]

so if we fix the bail system, crime will go down? I'm trying to understand your point. Bail comes after the crime (allegedly) and the arrest.

 

[Friendmonton]

so if we fix the bail system, crime will go down? I'm trying to understand your point. Bail comes after the crime (allegedly) and the arrest.

Yes, because violent, repeat offenders will be behind bars where they can't commit crimes. Right now it's a revolving door and repeat offenders are out in our communities committing a disproportionate amount of crime in the city, especially downtown. Just read about the Chinatown killings, the Belvedere Station killing, etc.

 

[buildings]

I do get that but I'm not taking about violent crime. downtown crime is more petty, property crimes, theft, vandalism, fights, open drug use and such from the drunks and druggies. I don't see bail reform as having much of an effect on that. Of course no one wants to see truly violent people let out.

 

[TAS]

As has been noted before, and makes matters even worse, is that Edmonton has a disproportionate amount of correctional facilities and more people are released from jail in Edmonton everyday than any other muncipality in Canada - and that's not per capita, just absolute numbers.

I don't hear any councillors/candidates and mayoralty candidates talk about that and stand up for Edmonton's wellbeing in this regard. And the province doesn't care. News media - do they know or care? Leaders in business community? Social agencies?

Who did I hear this from a year ago on a news show? From St. Albert's mayor Cathy Heron who felt bad for the city.

 

[David A]

As has been noted before, and makes matters even worse, is that Edmonton has a disproportionate amount of correctional facilities and more people are released from jail in Edmonton everyday than any other muncipality in Canada - and that's not per capita, just absolute numbers.

I don't hear any councillors/candidates and mayoralty candidates talk about that and stand up for Edmonton's wellbeing in this regard. And the province doesn't care. News media - do they know or care? Leaders in business community? Social agencies?

Who did I hear this from a year ago on a news show? From St. Albert's mayor Cathy Heron who felt bad for the city.

Downtown Edmonton does seem to be the dumping ground for all of Alberta's social problems and it really seems like no one cares, not the province or the EPS, and the city doesn't seem to have a good handle on it either.

All this makes it harder for those businesses who want to be or remain downtown and turns off some people who might be interested in living downtown.

 

[policyenthusiast]

Downtown Edmonton does seem to be the dumping ground for all of Alberta's social problems and it really seems like no one cares, not the province or the EPS, and the city doesn't seem to have a good handle on it either.

All this makes it harder for those businesses who want to be or remain downtown and turns off some people who might be interested in living downtown.

It's affecting vacancy rates, values, traffic, investment, tourism... the list goes on. Here's a chart of DT condo prices since 2009.

The incentive to build new units Downtown simply does not exist when the market is in a nosedive. Yet another reason infill is important.

 

[Greenspace]

A group of us were told by someone high up in City admin yesterday that drug-related overdose death totals for the first three months of the year are more than all of last year. This is going to have a huge impact on the feel of the core, disorder and crime.

The province is engaged but we're months away from treatment beds needed for the Compassionate Care Act and other solutions. If it seems there's more emergency vehicles around than before it's not your imagination. It's huge problem that's getting worse and Carfentanil is currently is to blame.

 

[northlands]

Missing from these discussions about which government is failing us is the Feds. Substance addiction, overdose fatalities, and homelessness in Edmonton all impact Indigenous people at a profoundly disproportionate rate, to the point that the average life expectancy of an Indigenous person in Alberta is nearly 20 years below the average. This falls squarely at the feet of the Feds, who have been severely dropping the ball on this portfolio since forever.

I've spent some very brief time up in a couple remote northern Indigenous communities in AB & SK. The poverty, drug abuse and gang violence is hard to even comprehend, nevermind the overall severe generational trauma they are still trying to heal from, and you can see how it extends out of those communities and into urban areas like Edmonton.

 

[constance_chlore]

Missing from these discussions about which government is failing us is the Feds. Substance addiction, overdose fatalities, and homelessness in Edmonton all impact Indigenous people at a profoundly disproportionate rate, to the point that the average life expectancy of an Indigenous person in Alberta is nearly 20 years below the average. This falls squarely at the feet of the Feds, who have been severely dropping the ball on this portfolio since forever.

I've spent some very brief time up in a couple remote northern Indigenous communities in AB & SK. The poverty, drug abuse and gang violence is hard to even comprehend, nevermind the overall severe generational trauma they are still trying to heal from, and you can see how it extends out of those communities and into urban areas like Edmonton.

What sorts of actions would you like to see the Feds take?

 

[Oilguy]

Downtown Edmonton does seem to be the dumping ground for all of Alberta's social problems and it really seems like no one cares, not the province or the EPS, and the city doesn't seem to have a good handle on it either.

All this makes it harder for those businesses who want to be or remain downtown and turns off some people who might be interested in living downtown.

I have been very frustrated with the eps but having heard from the senior officers downtown, I think they care a lot and are trying. They are wildly outmatched in this battle though, but seem to be taking some appropriate steps.

As for the province, I agree they don’t care and maybe even secretly want this situation to go on so they can install their dream puppet government in council.

 

[MacLac]

Ultimately, this is the BEST way to handle this issue across the globe except NO ONE will say it out loud. Good for this guy!

Santa Monica business owner offering one-way tickets out of town for homeless people

California business owner John Alle launched a program offering free, no-questions-asked flights home for unhoused people in LA County with an ID and a contact at their destination.

www.independent.co.uk