policyenthusiast
Active Member
...Voldemort? Napalm?
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- Thread starter Stevey_G
- Start date
ADob
Active Member
What is the answer? I certainly don't know it. I mean other than putting people in jail for engaging in illegal/violent activities.
ADob
Active Member
I think our planters already look terrible enough without adding napalm to the equation.
_urbanite
Senior Member
I bike ride through downtown multiple times a week. Riding through Oliver vs the CBD is such a stark difference. Oliver I feel exponentially safer riding through. Much cleaner, less sketchy stuff going on (though sometimes you might see something on Jasper Ave). I miss living there, and wouldn't hesitate to move back.
For the CBD, It doesn't seem to matter what time of day or day of the week it is, it's always mess and downright scary. The social disorder I see is off the charts. Not as bad as say the DTES in Vancouver, but honestly, it's not that far off. The library, as others have mentioned, seems to be the epic center of it all. But there are many other pockets like 103 ave between city hall and 101 st; outside the old Crash Hotel across the street from Ice District; almost every LRT entrance a long Jasper Ave; the benches along the east of 100 st by Churchill Square; outside CIBC & Tim Hortons on Jasper Ave between 101 & 102 st; TELUS Park outside ATB Place; the parkade on Rice Howard Way. This list is not exhaustive, unfortunately. These are the main trouble spots I see when I'm riding through, and these were also the main trouble spots when I worked in the CBD a few years ago. Unfortunately, they're the most visible areas of our DT, and it's only getting worse. It's driven away so much investment in our DT, and will continue to drive away even more. There are some well established companies who are planning to vacate their spaces and leave downtown once their leases expire because they've had enough.
The sympathy fatigue is very real. I used to be a lot more sympathetic to the homeless people DT. I still believe many of them are victims of others who are predators (drug dealers, gang members wearing gang colors riding bikes), but I've had enough. The traditional model of building shelters as a sorta stop gap measure isn't working anymore. Some of these people will never take the help they're offered, and some will never get the help they need due to a lack of resources. We can't build our way out of this problem. The solution (or part of it at least) has to include what Maclac is alluding to, and what our provincial government has already stated they're looking at. We then need to really crackdown on the losers who are preying on these people. We need to start dismantling the gangs that have popped up and become so prevalent and brazen in their methods of victimizing people. Perhaps we need a dedicated downtown police force that only operates downtown, with dedicated funding, to get ahead of this. But we need a city council with the balls to do something like that
For the CBD, It doesn't seem to matter what time of day or day of the week it is, it's always mess and downright scary. The social disorder I see is off the charts. Not as bad as say the DTES in Vancouver, but honestly, it's not that far off. The library, as others have mentioned, seems to be the epic center of it all. But there are many other pockets like 103 ave between city hall and 101 st; outside the old Crash Hotel across the street from Ice District; almost every LRT entrance a long Jasper Ave; the benches along the east of 100 st by Churchill Square; outside CIBC & Tim Hortons on Jasper Ave between 101 & 102 st; TELUS Park outside ATB Place; the parkade on Rice Howard Way. This list is not exhaustive, unfortunately. These are the main trouble spots I see when I'm riding through, and these were also the main trouble spots when I worked in the CBD a few years ago. Unfortunately, they're the most visible areas of our DT, and it's only getting worse. It's driven away so much investment in our DT, and will continue to drive away even more. There are some well established companies who are planning to vacate their spaces and leave downtown once their leases expire because they've had enough.
The sympathy fatigue is very real. I used to be a lot more sympathetic to the homeless people DT. I still believe many of them are victims of others who are predators (drug dealers, gang members wearing gang colors riding bikes), but I've had enough. The traditional model of building shelters as a sorta stop gap measure isn't working anymore. Some of these people will never take the help they're offered, and some will never get the help they need due to a lack of resources. We can't build our way out of this problem. The solution (or part of it at least) has to include what Maclac is alluding to, and what our provincial government has already stated they're looking at. We then need to really crackdown on the losers who are preying on these people. We need to start dismantling the gangs that have popped up and become so prevalent and brazen in their methods of victimizing people. Perhaps we need a dedicated downtown police force that only operates downtown, with dedicated funding, to get ahead of this. But we need a city council with the balls to do something like that
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David A
Senior Member
I feel EPS has either given up on downtown or is afraid to go out there and do their job. Community policing in Edmonton died some time ago.
_urbanite
Senior Member
If homeless people were congregating and setting up camps more frequently in the far souther suburbs (I say more frequently because a few already try and do this), then I would'nt be surprised if you would see a more concerted effort to address the issue.
Nothing will get done until those who live in far flung "safe" communities start getting directly affected by this problem. And I'm not just talking about having to walk past homeless people on their way into the local gas station or grocery store. I'm talking about homeless people living directly next door to their houses on bike paths and walk ways, or in their neighbourhood parks along their fences.
Far too many people in this city are perfectly ok with this being a downtown and or northside/central neighbourhood issue (including some city officials and police officers). They're very confortable living in their far flung neighbourhoods never having to think about the homeless and drug addicts downtown
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IanO
Superstar
It's less about homelessness and more about drug use/impacts and gang members/criminal activity.
thommyjo
Senior Member
100%. Unhoused people aren’t even the issue downtown. It’s drug users who, due to their addiction, are un-housable.
Tired of people bringing up housing first data from Finland 15 years ago as if it’s relevant to our context and issues. LA, Portland, and Vancouver have sunk BILLIONS into housing. It’s not the primary issue.
It’s drugs, crime, disorder being allowed and literally defended by overly compassionate people.
inclusion
New Member
Our justice system has a robust process for dealing with offenders, even outside the bail system. People accused of a crime are presumed innocent and have a right to due process, and, convictions are dealt with on a case by case basis. We can't punish offenders by jailing them before we know whether they're offenders. While the bail system does need reform, there is a point where you swing the other direction too far as well. Bail requires nuance and is supposed to be there to protect the public, when required, but definitely shouldn't be applied in all cases. Stealing may be a crime, but is it the same as carrying a knife or threatening someone? Committing a violent crime is also treated differently than simply carrying a knife. The law has nuance.
If you want to change the system, law schools will happily accept you, train you, and you can work towards a policy job in justice or work as a crown prosecutor.
As for the comparisons to other countries that you travelled to once or twice and witnessed something - not sure how helpful those drive by anecdotes are on this subject. Seoul definitely has homeless encampments just like we do. Look up Seoul Station. As for Malaysia, alcohol is also banned among other things. We have to ask ourselves, what type of society do we want to be and how much should be permissible? You can have a stronger justice system that treats more crime with tougher sentences or other forms of punishment, but that has downstream effects on society and culture. If we adopt an Islamic style justice system, we could eliminate many of the underlying issues facing our downtown. But at what cost? What if the wrong person is arrested and prosecuted? Should we just adopt an ICE type of force that can round people up as required? What about execution whether public or private for stealing? There are countless examples of law enforcement from one extreme to the other around the world. The question is how far should the needle be moved in Canada? Depending on the specific poster in this thread, the spectrum varies greatly.
In the name of protecting downtown, perhaps the needle should move as far as possible? Other posters imply that we all know the solution. Which one of the above solutions is it?
There is a lot of privilege evident in this thread.
If you want to change the system, law schools will happily accept you, train you, and you can work towards a policy job in justice or work as a crown prosecutor.
As for the comparisons to other countries that you travelled to once or twice and witnessed something - not sure how helpful those drive by anecdotes are on this subject. Seoul definitely has homeless encampments just like we do. Look up Seoul Station. As for Malaysia, alcohol is also banned among other things. We have to ask ourselves, what type of society do we want to be and how much should be permissible? You can have a stronger justice system that treats more crime with tougher sentences or other forms of punishment, but that has downstream effects on society and culture. If we adopt an Islamic style justice system, we could eliminate many of the underlying issues facing our downtown. But at what cost? What if the wrong person is arrested and prosecuted? Should we just adopt an ICE type of force that can round people up as required? What about execution whether public or private for stealing? There are countless examples of law enforcement from one extreme to the other around the world. The question is how far should the needle be moved in Canada? Depending on the specific poster in this thread, the spectrum varies greatly.
In the name of protecting downtown, perhaps the needle should move as far as possible? Other posters imply that we all know the solution. Which one of the above solutions is it?
There is a lot of privilege evident in this thread.
kylep84
New Member
Yep 100%, I live across the street from the library downtown so I'm lucky enough to see/deal with shit multiple times a day. Lots of homeless people are fine and cause no issues but these career criminal junkies and their pathetic behavior is the problem.
When heroin was the hardest drug out there things were much better, fentanyl is the biggest problem.
Kosy123
Senior Member
The toxicity of the drug supply in North America is the biggest driver of social issues in this continent
And it's going to continue as there's practically a chemical arms race when it comes to the supply of drugs out there. Fentanyl used to be the boogie man for it, but that's now been replaced by xylazine infused fentanyl.
https://www.ccsa.ca/sites/default/f...ylazine-in-the-unregulated-drug-supply-en.pdf
And it's going to continue as there's practically a chemical arms race when it comes to the supply of drugs out there. Fentanyl used to be the boogie man for it, but that's now been replaced by xylazine infused fentanyl.
https://www.ccsa.ca/sites/default/f...ylazine-in-the-unregulated-drug-supply-en.pdf
thommyjo
Senior Member
“If you want to change the system, law schools will happily accept you, train you, and you can work towards a policy job in justice or work as a crown prosecutor.“
While I understand this sentiment, it’s not a logical argument to suggest people can have 0 critiques of a system unless they’re willing to change it themselves. We can’t all do everything. Don’t like the war in gaza? Become a top ranking American official and influence change? Don’t like corporate greed and injustices against developing nations? Become an exec at H&M then. Concerned about policing? Guess you have to be the police chief.
The everyday citizen can still call on our civic leaders to bring about change and expect them to be the ones to change this as it’s their job that we pay them for. Of course those in positions of power are also supposed to be experts and are likely much more informed about solutions than the public. But when things aren’t working, and people can tell, the experts need to seek solutions.
And I think that’s where Canada is at. A boiling point of frustration at the elite politicians and courts who often are protected from the consequences of their policy choices by their own wealth and privilege.
The slippery slope arguments you lay out are logical fallacies. “You want heroin users and violent criminals arrested and not released on bail? What’s next, sharia law and alcohol outlawed?”
No one called for that… but 20 years ago we had a legal system that was functioning much better than it is today at protecting innocent civilians from repeat offenders out on bail. It needs to change.
Whatup
Active Member
I've mentioned before that many foreigners who come to Canada must think our government is crazy to tolerate such lawlessness and disorder. Allowing situations like "safe supply" and easy access to class A drugs is crazy - what did they think would happen? Also, millions of people get dealt a bad hand in life but don't decide to become drug addicted homeless criminals who threaten people and destroy property. Also, millions of people who do get addicted to drugs and alcohol are able to recover and lead productive lives. I have very little sympathy for people who make little or no attempt to take advantage of the many recovery programs available to them in a overly tolerant society like Canada. Also, I have zero respect for "progressive" policy makers who think they know better then everyone and push ridiculous, harmful, nonsensical policies that have resulted in chaos and social destruction in Canadian society. The Liberals "catch and release" crime policies have been nothing short of a disaster for Canada and it boggles the mind that this awful "elbows up" government could dupe so many Canadians so easily and get reelected because of "orange man bad". This country deserves the government it gets.
inclusion
New Member
The bail system isn't as bad as sensationalists on this forum seem to believe. The boiling point is seemingly a result of a change in society after the pandemic that thinks they understand everything about a system or issue without really understanding anything. The notion that the system is broken is also a logical fallacy. There are other factors than the justice system - pharmaceutical drug use has skyrocketed exponentially in the last several years. There is a vast separation of how the law operates and how the public thinks it operates. As for bail:
First, there are multiple forms of bail, each varying in restrictiveness. These include release without conditions, release with conditions, recognizances (a promise to pay if conditions are breached), recognizances with deposit, and surety releases. It’s not simply a matter of “cash bail.”
Second, in most cases, bail is granted through mutual consent of the Crown and defence. The accused typically does not need to appear before a judge for a contested show cause hearing to secure interim release. In many cases, bail is straightforward and not all that risky.
Third, when the accused is charged with a non-violent offence (most summary or hybrid offences), the Crown bears the burden of justifying any restrictions on the accused’s liberty, including pre-trial detention. Conversely, where the charge involves a violent offence or a special designated offence (treason), the default position is that bail is denied unless the accused can show cause for their release. Relevant prior criminal history, risk of flight, strength of the Crown’s case, and public safety are core considerations in determining whether bail is granted or restricted. Careers “criminals” wouldn’t often succeed in a show cause hearing.
Fourth, bail isn’t only a matter of humanitarian concern, it’s essential to the proper functioning of the criminal justice system. Pre-trial detention is expensive, strains judicial and administrative resources, and creates logistical difficulties for COs. It increases trial delays/limits access to counsel, overwhelms correctional facilities (which means more staff turnover and lockdowns), results in more civil proceedings (habeas corpus applications, judicial review applications actions, regulatory complaints, civil suits). Bail also allows accused persons to continue working, caring for dependents, and fulfilling other legal and personal obligations while awaiting trial.
Finally, the vast majority of individuals released on bail do not commit further, non-administration of justice criminal offences. Most breaches involve violations of bail conditions….for example, someone charged with impaired driving who is ordered not to drink alcohol may be found drinking and thus breach their conditions, even if they do not commit a new offence. The career criminal scenario isn’t actually happening in most cases. When breach of bail does happen, it is largely not showing up to court on time or failing to report to a police officer.
Hopefully no one here is subject to being falsely charged with a criminal offence.The Charter is important, more so if you are incarcerated via pretrial detention. Your access to mount a defence decreases significantly.
It's not just snapping ones fingers and saying bail needs to be fixed; the problem is more nuanced and complex than that. The point of my original post was that you can't just fix the justice system easily nor is it the only problem. Drugs of today aren't the same as even 20 years ago. There are other roots, particularly the lack of control of drugs by multiple border agencies in different countries that will continue to exacerbate the issue. Until we figure out how to control the flow of meth and fentanyl, there are going to be problem people in downtown's across the country. Toss the existing ones in jail and there will be new people to replace them. Likewise, cut off part of a criminal enterprise and it will be replaced. Instead of alcohol, crack, weed, etc, we now have meth, oxy, fentanyl and other pharmaceutical drugs that have much more extreme human responses. If we truly want to fix this issue, people are really going to need to completely understand the issue thoroughly to ensure we fix the right things instead of pointing the finger at things that aren't necessarily the issue.
ADob
Active Member
Thanks for the reminder that most of the topics we sometimes tend to get wound up about are far more nuanced and complex than a perfunctory reading of a headline or even a shallow dive into the subject suggest. I'm tangentially involved in some work that is routinely yelled about on the media but which the yellers understand very poorly and/or only in light of their ideology or wishful thinking. It's too easy to lose track of the complexities involved in most things, and especially on a topic as multi-faceted as this. I'm very much guilty of getting pissed off and venting (and hey, that's human nature) but it is useful to remember that there is way more to this conversation than just black and white, for and against.