[robmausser]

Kitchener might like a KW route but Londoners & Windsorites wouldn't.

KW from SWO is a very indirect route and would be much more difficult to build if following the current rail line. The CP to Woodstock & CN to Aldershot portions are straight as an arrow when reinvigorating the Brantford Bypass. If you make the route too indirect and with too many stations, there would hardly be any advantage over the current London Express. Also KW will have all-day frequent GO rail service they don't exactly need it.

As for Pearson, only Torontonians could be so arrogant as to think everybody in SO flies out of it. Windsorites NEVER use Pearson and Londoners surprisingly don't use it much either. This is why the current buses that serve the L-P route are not very bus. L&W already have international & sun routes as well as connections to every major city in the country. It costs more but that expense is more than made up for by not paying Pearson fees and the cost to get to Pearson. This is to say nothing of the fact that using them is a blissful experience compared to the nightmare that is Pearson.

An ALTO route to SWO should leave Union, make every other route a more accessible one with stops in Aldershot, Woodstock, and Chatham and make every other train an complete Union to London to Windsor non-stop express via the Aldershot.

Not only is the route to Kitchener not that much more indirect than the one through Woodstock, because the one through Woodstock has to go southerly, but its much more likely to be the preferred route (beyond it bypassing Pearson and much larger economic/populated region of KWC than Brantford and Woodstock) because its much more available.

The GEXR route is very similar to the Peterborough routing of the current Alto plans to Montreal, and the Woodstock routing is CN's mainline and will have all the same issues that made using the current Lakeshore route of the VIA line through Kingston a non-starter.

The idea that the Kitchener route is less direct to Toronto is the same falsehood that the Peterborough route is less direct.

People have this idea that Windsor > Toronto > Montreal is straight East/West, when its actually on a tilt northerly. The more northerly routes through Kitchener and Peterborough add very little track time because of this misconception.

 

[Sunnyside]

What we need more is a five-year cash flow beginning now that gets the legacy system on s better footing and the regional GO enhancements to Kingston, St Catharines and Kitchener-London (at least) in good shape. That may involve some rougher handling of CN.

This is realistic, especially a moderate funding commitment.

I don’t know exactly how close the relationship between the feds and CN is, but it’ll need to reach a new level if we want multiple objectives at once (read ‘various Herculean efforts to get around the RRs’). I’m not old enough to picture a crown corp CN, but I find the newfound need for cooperation ironic. I wonder if anyone’s ever considered a buyout as the path of least resistance…

Delaying thst commitment while we debate Alto, and thereby living with status quo for longer when we could see results immediately, is a crying shame IMHO.

- Paul

And thats a good reason for Ford to have a ‘GO 2.0’ right now. Its items are either loosely prerequisite for ALTO (freight bypass) or of a scope which ON only pretends it can tackle anytime soon (Milton etc).

It’s benefits are more regional (to the feds) than ‘metropolitan’. I imagine It’s also hard to find a case against the long-overdue projects; some could very well be profitable infrastructure. With a GTA-oriented Premier, and the liberals having resonated with economic uncertainties in the rest of SO, it might be a good match.

 

[north-of-anything]

In my mind, to keep it as a truly high-speed service, a hypothetical Alto West would serve Union, Pearson, Kitchener, London, and Windsor. Guelph is comparable in size to Peterborough, sure, but it doesn't have the same regional hub status as Peterborough, and there should be an opportunity to enhance Guelph-Kitchener service thanks to the upgrades needed for ALTO.

As for Brampton, I think it would have to be skipped in order to maintain fast travel times through to Kitchener and beyond. Make an express GO train that only stops at Union, Bloor, Pearson, Brampton, Guelph, and Kitchener to serve that market; I imagine more Bramptonians want an express ride to Toronto's downtown than to Montreal's.

 

[Sunnyside]

Not only is the route to Kitchener not that much more indirect than the one through Woodstock, because the one through Woodstock has to go southerly, but its much more likely to be the preferred route (beyond it bypassing Pearson and much larger economic/populated region of KWC than Brantford and Woodstock) because its much more available.

The GEXR route is very similar to the Peterborough routing of the current Alto plans to Montreal, and the Woodstock routing is CN's mainline and will have all the same issues that made using the current Lakeshore route of the VIA line through Kingston a non-starter.

The idea that the Kitchener route is less direct to Toronto is the same falsehood that the Peterborough route is less direct.

People have this idea that Windsor > Toronto > Montreal is straight East/West, when its actually on a tilt northerly. The more northerly routes through Kitchener and Peterborough add very little track time because of this misconception.

Were these routes not historically branched, with half going south to Hamilton/Brantford and half going north through KW?

The ‘real’ implied challenge is not about KW vs Brantford, it’s Hamilton or KWC. But Hamilton is a false option, especially for this. I can think of 3 or 4 non-starter elements right off the top of my head. Most of which create a new problem for each one they ‘fix’.

 

[robmausser]

Were these routes not historically branched, with half going south to Hamilton/Brantford and half going north through KW?

The ‘real’ implied challenge is not about KW vs Brantford, it’s Hamilton or KWC. But Hamilton is a false option, especially for this. I can think of 3 or 4 non-starter elements right off the top of my head. Most of which create a new problem for each one they ‘fix’.

Historically perhaps but not within the last 40 years.

GEXR currently sees next to no freight traffic. A handful of small trains a day. The line from Kitchener to London is in disrepair and has a single track with a 40kmh speed limit for freight. The line from Kitchener to Toronto is only in decent shape because of Metrolinx.

The Woodstock Brantford route is now for sure the mainline of CN.

 

[nfitz]

As for Brampton, I think it would have to be skipped in order to maintain fast travel times through to Kitchener and beyond. Make an express GO train that only stops at Union, Bloor, Pearson, Brampton, Guelph, and Kitchener to serve that market; I imagine more Bramptonians want an express ride to Toronto's downtown than to Montreal's.

Why only run a single service pattern? In many places with high speed rail, they have different trains stopping at different places, with some more non-stop and some all stop.

And surely for that particular route (unlike the one to Peterborough), running a high-speed premium commuter service would be beneficial.

 

[micheal_can]

But do they? In the context of talks currently going on between the feds and provinces, they are looking for "nation building" projects. Each province will have their Christmas list but it is naive to think everybody is going to get everything.

There may be other funding opportunities for the feds to support local transit, but I think the political climate will be (in no particular order), keep Alberta happy, not piss off Quebec too much and increase trade and commerce away from the US (not eliminate as some advocate). They will want something that will have some manner of tangible result within their first mandate.

The challenge is whether there can be some sort of compromise that does see a pipeline east to tidewater(and the Canadian refineries in the east).What QC gets in return remains to be seen.

Kitchener might like a KW route but Londoners & Windsorites wouldn't.

KW from SWO is a very indirect route and would be much more difficult to build if following the current rail line. The CP to Woodstock & CN to Aldershot portions are straight as an arrow when reinvigorating the Brantford Bypass. If you make the route too indirect and with too many stations, there would hardly be any advantage over the current London Express. Also KW will have all-day frequent GO rail service they don't exactly need it.

As for Pearson, only Torontonians could be so arrogant as to think everybody in SO flies out of it. Windsorites NEVER use Pearson and Londoners surprisingly don't use it much either. This is why the current buses that serve the L-P route are not very bus. L&W already have international & sun routes as well as connections to every major city in the country. It costs more but that expense is more than made up for by not paying Pearson fees and the cost to get to Pearson. This is to say nothing of the fact that using them is a blissful experience compared to the nightmare that is Pearson.

An ALTO route to SWO should leave Union, make every other route a more accessible one with stops in Aldershot, Woodstock, and Chatham and make every other train an complete Union to London to Windsor non-stop express via the Aldershot.

Most of my family that flies that lives in London flies through Detroit. Airport shuttles in London area have specific routes to the Detroit airport.

In my mind, to keep it as a truly high-speed service, a hypothetical Alto West would serve Union, Pearson, Kitchener, London, and Windsor. Guelph is comparable in size to Peterborough, sure, but it doesn't have the same regional hub status as Peterborough, and there should be an opportunity to enhance Guelph-Kitchener service thanks to the upgrades needed for ALTO.

As for Brampton, I think it would have to be skipped in order to maintain fast travel times through to Kitchener and beyond. Make an express GO train that only stops at Union, Bloor, Pearson, Brampton, Guelph, and Kitchener to serve that market; I imagine more Bramptonians want an express ride to Toronto's downtown than to Montreal's.

And a Union, Hamilton, Brantford, London service could be used as well. Part of the challenge is the Kitchener and Brantford area are both major centres in their own right. If one were built first, the Guelph sub makes the most sense.

 

[robmausser]

In my mind, to keep it as a truly high-speed service, a hypothetical Alto West would serve Union, Pearson, Kitchener, London, and Windsor. Guelph is comparable in size to Peterborough, sure, but it doesn't have the same regional hub status as Peterborough, and there should be an opportunity to enhance Guelph-Kitchener service thanks to the upgrades needed for ALTO.

As for Brampton, I think it would have to be skipped in order to maintain fast travel times through to Kitchener and beyond. Make an express GO train that only stops at Union, Bloor, Pearson, Brampton, Guelph, and Kitchener to serve that market; I imagine more Bramptonians want an express ride to Toronto's downtown than to Montreal's.

I do think at some point in the more distant future we will have a high speed train separate from Alto that will go from Toronto to the USA through Brampton and Hamilton.

But that depends on many political and diplomatic factors as well and I don't see it as a priority over an Alto West to Windsor.

The border delay and the fact that the lake kinda gets in the way for a NYC train makes flying a harder option to try and compete with. Plus the Americans have little priority building a HSR route through Upstate New York, which is not densely populated.

 

[crs1026]

Kitchener to Stratford is dead straight, and Stratford to London East is also. Upgrade that section just to the equivalent of Ottawa to Brockville today, ie 160 km/h, and the time difference to the Brantford route will be trivial, and modal share will be favourable on a route with very congested highways.
Getting CN to agree to more trains through Brantford would be a very hard sell, whereas they will not push back about the Kitchener line.... perhaps a generous purchase offer is all that's needed to ensure buyin. Money well spent.
The biggest point is, it would be very vanilla rail construction which would fit within Carney's criteria of low risk, high doability, quick shovels in ground, minimal prep time, and transformative potential. Don't get your hopes up for Alto making tnis round's list - it's a harder sell with long lead times.
Hamilton-Grimsby-St Catharines is likewise.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

Kitchener to Stratford is dead straight, and Stratford to London East is also. Upgrade that section just to the equivalent of Ottawa to Brockville today, ie 160 km/h, and the time difference to the Brantford route will be trivial, and modal share will be favourable on a route with very congested highways.
Getting CN to agree to more trains through Brantford would be a very hard sell, whereas they will not push back about the Kitchener line.... perhaps a generous purchase offer is all that's needed to ensure buyin. Money well spent.
The biggest point is, it would be very vanilla rail construction which would fit within Carney's criteria of low risk, high doability, quick shovels in ground, minimal prep time, and transformative potential. Don't get your hopes up for Alto making tnis round's list - it's a harder sell with long lead times.
Hamilton-Grimsby-St Catharines is likewise.

- Paul

Exactly: there are three existing corridors between Toronto and London. One is for most of its part dead straight, serves the by-far largest population centre between the GTHA and London and is already partly under public control, the others are CN’s and CP’s main Toronto-Chicago spines, respectively, and thus zealously guarded by highly protective host railroads.

Someone please help us figure out which of these three corridors should be used for fast and frequent (and of course one day electric!) passenger services… /s

 

[Sunnyside]

Exactly: there are three existing corridors between Toronto and London. One is for most of its part dead straight, serves the by-far largest population centre between the GTHA and London and is already partly under public control, the others are CN’s and CP’s main Toronto-Chicago spines, respectively, and thus zealously guarded by highly protective host railroads.

Someone please help us figure out which of these three corridors should be used for fast and frequent (and of course one day electric!) passenger services… /s

Hey now, there’s also an extremely windy. abandoned CP corridor you could use. Or a highway right of way! Lots of ideas to pass the time to the obvious decision.

 

[nfitz]

Exactly: there are three existing corridors between Toronto and London. One is for most of its part dead straight, serves the by-far largest population centre between the GTHA and London and is already partly under public control, the others are CN’s and CP’s main Toronto-Chicago spines, respectively, and thus zealously guarded by highly protective host railroads.

If we'd used such a criteria for a Toronto to Montreal HST, then they'd leave Toronto heading along the Lakeshore - rather than towards Algonquin Park.

 

[micheal_can]

If we'd used such a criteria for a Toronto to Montreal HST, then they'd leave Toronto heading along the Lakeshore - rather than towards Algonquin Park.

Now, now,now, lets not be logical with our fantasies.

Seriously, they are bypassing Kingston, so bypassing Kitchener could happen too.

And of course, it will be using an ROW that is anything but straight.

 

[north-of-anything]

Why only run a single service pattern? In many places with high speed rail, they have different trains stopping at different places, with some more non-stop and some all stop.

And surely for that particular route (unlike the one to Peterborough), running a high-speed premium commuter service would be beneficial.

I'm not an expert on service patterns. I was just envisioning the stops that I can see every Alto train making. Guelph and Brampton may fall under the same category as Peterborough, seeing daily service but maybe not every single train. I would expect that GO trains will fulfill the high-speed commuter service, with Alto being focused more on intercity through traffic going to/from London, Ottawa, and beyond.

 

[micheal_can]

I'm not an expert on service patterns. I was just envisioning the stops that I can see every Alto train making. Guelph and Brampton may fall under the same category as Peterborough, seeing daily service but maybe not every single train. I would expect that GO trains will fulfill the high-speed commuter service, with Alto being focused more on intercity through traffic going to/from London, Ottawa, and beyond.

I feel there needs to be 4 different levels of service between Kitchener and Union.
1) HSR, only stops at Kitchener, Pearson and Union.
2) Existing Via rail
3)Existing GO
4) Express GO, but not as few stops as existing Via Rail.

For NF, there would only be 2 stops, Hamilton and Niagara Falls. This line would be well served if there were 4 levels of service too.