[robmausser]

As much as a phase with just Toronto > Montreal, or Windsor to Montreal is more economically viable due to ridership etc unfortunately it is a political impossibility. Quebec provincial and the Block federal party have strongly stated many times in this HFR>HSR project that they will not support any HSR/HFR project that isn't 50% (or near 50%) built in Quebec. They see a Toronto to Montreal train as having the majority of tracks in Ontario and serving english speaking communities, even if it terminates at Montreal.

Its Toronto to Quebec City or nothing.

 

[micheal_can]

As much as a phase with just Toronto > Montreal, or Windsor to Montreal is more economically viable due to ridership etc unfortunately it is a political impossibility. Quebec provincial and the Block federal party have strongly stated many times in this HFR>HSR project that they will not support any HSR/HFR project that isn't 50% (or near 50%) built in Quebec. They see a Toronto to Montreal train as having the majority of tracks in Ontario and serving english speaking communities, even if it terminates at Montreal.

Its Toronto to Quebec City or nothing.

This goes back to why I have said that everything Via has done, good and bad has been politically driven, not practical driven.

 

[Urban Sky]

As much as a phase with just Toronto > Montreal, or Windsor to Montreal is more economically viable due to ridership etc unfortunately it is a political impossibility. Quebec provincial and the Block federal party have strongly stated many times in this HFR>HSR project that they will not support any HSR/HFR project that isn't 50% (or near 50%) built in Quebec. They see a Toronto to Montreal train as having the majority of tracks in Ontario and serving english speaking communities, even if it terminates at Montreal.

Its Toronto to Quebec City or nothing.

Where have PQ or BQ publicly stated such demands and why would it matter?

 

[Sunnyside]

Where have PQ or BQ publicly stated such demands and why would it matter?

It may not have been explicitly spelled out (any more than Rob pointed out already), but it is heavily implied in other ways, and a reasonable assumption. The second you bring QC into the fold, their interests are to be treated as equal to the rest of the nation. For better or worse.

That’s not the only factor, in fact I you could probably talk sense into QC if you really wanted to. It just isn’t worth it; you’re opening up a new problem to spend more money. The added animosity, time and cost are a lose-lose despite the material benefits.
……

In practice, ‘western’ ON needs only a few (big) infra improvements to get NF and Windsor to become two HFR-esque branches for ALTO to thru-run onto.

1- Halton sub bypass (Bramalea-Georgetown)
2- Guelph sub rehab and/or straightening
3- Bayview Jct
4- Welland Canal tunnel

Some of these are not immediately necessary (2, 4). You can run to Kitch and Ham/St. Kits with only 1 & 3. GO has all but (4) on the books in some way.

Let’s read the room; if the feds want to ‘save’ GO Expansion, they can perhaps kill two birds with one stone by packaging any of these as loosely part of ALTO and GO Exp (I do know they aren’t, really). They might be planning a swoop-in anyway, but this ties an Injection to ALTO, without bringing its huge scope.

Obviously this is not on the table right now, but there is a future opportunity for greater collaboration where it is already expected.

 

[micheal_can]

One of the challenges with SWO is which route do you take?
Servicing NF makes sense. So does going to London-Windsor. But do you go through Kitchener or Brantford, or both?
This challenge could be why it was kept off the books.

 

[crs1026]

Let’s read the room; if the feds want to ‘save’ GO Expansion, they can perhaps kill two birds with one stone by packaging any of these as loosely part of ALTO and GO Exp (I do know they aren’t, really). They might be planning a swoop-in anyway, but this ties an Injection to ALTO, without bringing its huge scope.

Obviously this is not on the table right now, but there is a future opportunity for greater collaboration where it is already expected.

And there’s the problem. Alto, even if ultimately blessed, has easily a decade of planning and design before shovels hit the ground. Cash flows really won’t ramp up for many years.

What we need more is a five-year cash flow beginning now that gets the legacy system on s better footing and the regional GO enhancements to Kingston, St Catharines and Kitchener-London (at least) in good shape. That may involve some rougher handling of CN.

Delaying thst commitment while we debate Alto, and thereby living with status quo for longer when we could see results immediately, is a crying shame IMHO.

- Paul

 

[ownthesky]

One of the challenges with SWO is which route do you take?
Servicing NF makes sense. So does going to London-Windsor. But do you go through Kitchener or Brantford, or both?
This challenge could be why it was kept off the books.

Split the baby and run it through Cambridge, finally giving Cambridge that rail right of way they've always wanted

 

[Urban Sky]

There is absolutely zero doubt that any fast and frequent Toronto-London train would go via Kitchener, serving Pearson Airport on the way. Hamilton will be served en route to Buffalo…

 

[micheal_can]

There is absolutely zero doubt that any fast and frequent Toronto-London train would go via Kitchener, serving Pearson Airport on the way. Hamilton will be served en route to Buffalo…

That makes initial sense, but what happens to Brantford? Is it left out?

 

[nfitz]

There is absolutely zero doubt that any fast and frequent Toronto-London train would go via Kitchener, serving Pearson Airport on the way. Hamilton will be served en route to Buffalo…

There've been multiple proposals in the past. We don't even know the current routing, as it's part of the 5-year study. There's no way we can be 100% sure of that section - even though it likely is the most sensible routing given how straight it is, the track capacity, limited freight, and the Guelph, Kitchener, and Brampton station locations and integration.

But it could require a greenfield alignment between London and Kitchener. And the Dundas sub is quite competitive - especially if they were to skip Brantford, and restore the bypass.

 

[lenaitch]

It may not have been explicitly spelled out (any more than Rob pointed out already), but it is heavily implied in other ways, and a reasonable assumption. The second you bring QC into the fold, their interests are to be treated as equal to the rest of the nation. For better or worse.

That’s not the only factor, in fact I you could probably talk sense into QC if you really wanted to. It just isn’t worth it; you’re opening up a new problem to spend more money. The added animosity, time and cost are a lose-lose despite the material benefits.
……

In practice, ‘western’ ON needs only a few (big) infra improvements to get NF and Windsor to become two HFR-esque branches for ALTO to thru-run onto.

1- Halton sub bypass (Bramalea-Georgetown)
2- Guelph sub rehab and/or straightening
3- Bayview Jct
4- Welland Canal tunnel

Some of these are not immediately necessary (2, 4). You can run to Kitch and Ham/St. Kits with only 1 & 3. GO has all but (4) on the books in some way.

Let’s read the room; if the feds want to ‘save’ GO Expansion, they can perhaps kill two birds with one stone by packaging any of these as loosely part of ALTO and GO Exp (I do know they aren’t, really). They might be planning a swoop-in anyway, but this ties an Injection to ALTO, without bringing its huge scope.

Obviously this is not on the table right now, but there is a future opportunity for greater collaboration where it is already expected.

But do they? In the context of talks currently going on between the feds and provinces, they are looking for "nation building" projects. Each province will have their Christmas list but it is naive to think everybody is going to get everything.

There may be other funding opportunities for the feds to support local transit, but I think the political climate will be (in no particular order), keep Alberta happy, not piss off Quebec too much and increase trade and commerce away from the US (not eliminate as some advocate). They will want something that will have some manner of tangible result within their first mandate.

 

[ssiguy2]

Kitchener might like a KW route but Londoners & Windsorites wouldn't.

KW from SWO is a very indirect route and would be much more difficult to build if following the current rail line. The CP to Woodstock & CN to Aldershot portions are straight as an arrow when reinvigorating the Brantford Bypass. If you make the route too indirect and with too many stations, there would hardly be any advantage over the current London Express. Also KW will have all-day frequent GO rail service they don't exactly need it.

As for Pearson, only Torontonians could be so arrogant as to think everybody in SO flies out of it. Windsorites NEVER use Pearson and Londoners surprisingly don't use it much either. This is why the current buses that serve the L-P route are not very bus. L&W already have international & sun routes as well as connections to every major city in the country. It costs more but that expense is more than made up for by not paying Pearson fees and the cost to get to Pearson. This is to say nothing of the fact that using them is a blissful experience compared to the nightmare that is Pearson.

An ALTO route to SWO should leave Union, make every other route a more accessible one with stops in Aldershot, Woodstock, and Chatham and make every other train an complete Union to London to Windsor non-stop express via the Aldershot.

 

[Adjei]

Kitchener might like a KW route but Londoners & Windsorites wouldn't.

KW from SWO is a very indirect route and would be much more difficult to build if following the current rail line. The CP to Woodstock & CN to Aldershot portions are straight as an arrow when reinvigorating the Brantford Bypass. If you make the route too indirect and with too many stations, there would hardly be any advantage over the current London Express. Also KW will have all-day frequent GO rail service they don't exactly need it.

As for Pearson, only Torontonians could be so arrogant as to think everybody in SO flies out of it. Windsorites NEVER use Pearson and Londoners surprisingly don't use it much either. This is why the current buses that serve the L-P route are not very bus. L&W already have international & sun routes as well as connections to every major city in the country. It costs more but that expense is more than made up for by not paying Pearson fees and the cost to get to Pearson. This is to say nothing of the fact that using them is a blissful experience compared to the nightmare that is Pearson.

An ALTO route to SWO should leave Union, make every other route a more accessible one with stops in Aldershot, Woodstock, and Chatham and make every other train an complete Union to London to Windsor non-stop express via the Aldershot.

The Ontario government’s planned high speed rail line which Doug Ford cancelled went through Pearson with a planned stop at Mallon station which is by Pearson so what are you talking about Torontonians being arrogant ?

If anything of this route was to be built to Windsor it would just be building upon until limited study of this line.

Archived - High speed rail

High speed trains running between Toronto and Windsor could cut your journey time in half, create economic opportunities, and reduce congestion and greenhouse gases. Learn what high speed rail means to you and your community.

www.ontario.ca

 

[Urban Sky]

Kitchener might like a KW route but Londoners & Windsorites wouldn't.

KW from SWO is a very indirect route and would be much more difficult to build if following the current rail line. The CP to Woodstock & CN to Aldershot portions are straight as an arrow when reinvigorating the Brantford Bypass. If you make the route too indirect and with too many stations, there would hardly be any advantage over the current London Express. Also KW will have all-day frequent GO rail service they don't exactly need it.

As for Pearson, only Torontonians could be so arrogant as to think everybody in SO flies out of it. Windsorites NEVER use Pearson and Londoners surprisingly don't use it much either. This is why the current buses that serve the L-P route are not very bus. L&W already have international & sun routes as well as connections to every major city in the country. It costs more but that expense is more than made up for by not paying Pearson fees and the cost to get to Pearson. This is to say nothing of the fact that using them is a blissful experience compared to the nightmare that is Pearson.

An ALTO route to SWO should leave Union, make every other route a more accessible one with stops in Aldershot, Woodstock, and Chatham and make every other train an complete Union to London to Windsor non-stop express via the Aldershot.

What, apart from boring us to death with your ever-same “London is the centre of the universe” nonsense, are you trying to achieve here?

Bypassing Kitchener on the way to London is even more hare-brained than skipping Ottawa on the way to Montreal, as Kitchener-Waterloo is actually larger than “little fake London on the fake River Thames”:

And, yes, I can read that Hamilton is even larger than K-W, but it’s just a satellite of the GTHA and will already be served by any future Toronto-Buffalo rail service with a much more central railway station than a fast and convenient Toronto-London service could ever do…

 

[nfitz]

Kitchener might like a KW route but Londoners & Windsorites wouldn't.

Why would they care, if it's the same speed - if not faster.

Not great for Hamilton and the GTA lakeshore - though they have relatively good connecting services. Currently the north line is only 10-km longer, and I'd think could more easily be brought up to higher speeds. Also if you build a new, straight alignment from Trussler Road on the west side of Waterloo to Nissouri Road just east of London, you could knock off about 11-km in distance!

What, apart from boring us to death with your ever-same “London is the centre of the universe” nonsense, are you trying to achieve here?

???

We spend a lot more time talking about Quebec City to Montreal, despite the much higher demand from Toronto to London. With a decade of chatter here about Quebec City, and with the government now looking at expanding high-speed service to London, then surely we should be discussing it more than Quebec City - not less. I'd think discussiong alignment potentials between Toronto and London (London to Windsor seems like a no-brainer using the existing very straight VIA track, and then paralleling the CN and CP track from Chatham to to London - if only at 175 km/hr to avoid grade separations initially.