[guavadelic]

This credit rating agency states that the Progressive P3 model chosen by Alto will help the project avoid the pitfalls by other similar large infrastructure projects due to the co-development phase helping de-risk the construction phase.

How the Progressive Public-Private Partnership Model Can Help Make Canadian High-Speed Rail a Reality

A project can achieve much higher design maturity through the co-development phase, more than 90% before ground breaking versus around 30% under a traditional PPP procurement. A much more advanced design helps the construction contractor accurately predict its price.

Because both parties have spent much more time in collaborations before committing a fixed-price and date-certain contract, the risks of unexpected scope changes can be significantly mitigated. Both parties can also use the co-development phase to materially advance relevant permit and site plan applications, secure necessary government fundings, acquire lands, divert utilities, negotiate third-party agreements, balance the risk register, establish contingency plans, and cultivate a more collaborative relationship with other stakeholders such as the end-user groups and the local municipalities.

https://dbrs.morningstar.com/docume...aMjhrJbxaECfM2fLw__&Key-Pair-Id=KNWV36WLG7L4J

It also referred to the challenges faced by California HSR. It states that the construction contracts for CAHSR were awarded when only 15% of the engineering design was completed, which contributed to the significant delays and cost overruns of the project.

 

[generalcanada]

This credit rating agency states that the Progressive P3 model chosen by Alto will help the project avoid the pitfalls by other similar large infrastructure projects due to the co-development phase helping de-risk the construction phase.



https://dbrs.morningstar.com/docume...aMjhrJbxaECfM2fLw__&Key-Pair-Id=KNWV36WLG7L4J

It also referred to the challenges faced by California HSR. It states that the construction contracts for CAHSR were awarded when only 15% of the engineering design was completed, which contributed to the significant delays and cost overruns of the project.

CAHSR only got environmental approvals for some sections like a year or 2 ago.
we gotta do it differently. shovels in the ground isnt worth anything if you dont know where to put the shovels.

 

[ericmacm]

This credit rating agency states that the Progressive P3 model chosen by Alto will help the project avoid the pitfalls by other similar large infrastructure projects due to the co-development phase helping de-risk the construction phase.



https://dbrs.morningstar.com/docume...aMjhrJbxaECfM2fLw__&Key-Pair-Id=KNWV36WLG7L4J

It also referred to the challenges faced by California HSR. It states that the construction contracts for CAHSR were awarded when only 15% of the engineering design was completed, which contributed to the significant delays and cost overruns of the project.

Other tidbits from the document that show why California HSR had such drastic cost overruns from the initial construction contract award of the IOS in 2012 for $30B:

• Land acquisition process had not yet been started. The total number of parcels had been significantly underestimated by the state government.
• Utility conflicts with the ROW were much more significant than initially estimated.
• ESA processes had also not been finished upon the award for construction, some are still not finished.
• The 15% design for one section was identified to be inadequate for flood risk mitigation and had to be redone.

The collaborative approach in the document claims to achieve up to a 90% design prior to construction contract award. The Alto development phase over the next 4-5 years, from what has been reported, is going to involve environmental assessment/permitting, design, land acquisition, and FN engagement. Obviously this is still early on in the process and a lot can go wrong, but even going so far as to complete all of this development phase work in advance of the construction contract, even if it takes longer than anticipated, is already going to put the project in a much better position than CAHSR.

 

[Allandale25]

Notes some of the legal work related to the project.

DLA Piper (Canada) LLP advises Alto on Canada high speed rail project

On March 19, Martin Imbleau, President and CEO of Alto, the Crown Corporation established to carry out the Quebec City to Toronto high speed rail project signed the Pre-Development Agreement with the Cadence Consortium led by CDPQ. The execution of the PDA marked the end of the procurement phase...

legaldesire.com

 

[reinventingthewheel]

I see a decent bit of talk about an underground platform at Union. I understand the capacity constraints of USRC but I also think any underground routing would be incredibly challenging.

There are so many obstacles to navigate heading northeast (foundations, OL and existing subways, Coxwell bypass, several waterways and sharp terrains). I really can’t picture where a new portal could even be built, which leads me to think we’d need a very deep tunnel stretching at least 10-15km before there’s a suitable location to emerge.

I’m interested to hear ideas.

 

[Bojaxs]

I see a decent bit of talk about an underground platform at Union. I understand the capacity constraints of USRC but I also think any underground routing would be incredibly challenging.

There are so many obstacles to navigate heading northeast (foundations, OL and existing subways, Coxwell bypass, several waterways and sharp terrains). I really can’t picture where a new portal could even be built, which leads me to think we’d need a very deep tunnel stretching at least 10-15km before there’s a suitable location to emerge.

I’m interested to hear ideas.

Not impossible, but the stations will certainly have to be deep.
It's not high speed rail, but look at London's Elizabeth line for reference.

 

[WB62]

Not impossible, but the stations will certainly have to be deep.
It's not high speed rail, but look at London's Elizabeth line for reference.

It’s been deemed technically feasible before when Metrolinx studied it, just not cost effective over upgrading the existing platforms for the then-named GO RER project.

I think ALTO operations will be too much for a post-OnCorr Union Station, which could see up to 120 trains per hour. And its not just the rail corridor, but also the VIA Concourse, it cannot handle 13x the traffic it currently sees + future GO crowds, and expanding it in any sort of way is out the window now.

 

[micheal_can]

It’s been deemed technically feasible before when Metrolinx studied it, just not cost effective over upgrading the existing platforms.

I think ALTO operations will be too much for a post-OnCorr Union Station, which could see up to 120 trains per hour. And I don’t just mean the rail corridor, but also the VIA Concourse, it cannot handle 13x the traffic it currently sees + future GO crowds, and expanding it in any sort of way is out the window now.

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Leave GO on the surface. Bury ALTO. If we assume that Union would be part of the expansion of ALTO to the west, then future proofing the area 4-8 tracks to permit terminating and thru trains to seamlessly use it.

 

[Urban Sky]

I think ALTO operations will be too much for a post-OnCorr Union Station, which could see up to 120 trains per hour. And its not just the rail corridor, but also the VIA Concourse, it cannot handle 13x the traffic it currently sees + future GO crowds, and expanding it in any sort of way is out the window now.

I‘m not really sure what figures you are quoting here. There are only four different corridors to reach Union Station (Oakville, Weston, Bala and Kingston Subdivisions) and I fail to see how any of them could accommodate anything close to 40 trains per hour…

 

[Tunafish13]

Could the Summerhill tracks be utilized instead? I know having the trains coming into Union would be ideal, but with such extreme cost and space parameters to get it into Union, could it make more sense to just build it at Summerhill? It could kick off a "Union North" and we could finally try to get GO Trains through midtown as well (a man can dream)

 

[Tunafish13]

Also, whats the feasibility of this actually getting built? I've heard from many people that this iteration is basically just a pipe dream and that the funding required to get this going would be immense and unrealistic. Im hoping they are are wrong because it would make a lot of sense to finally have high-speed rail in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, but I cant help but see the scale of this and be worried....

 

[generalcanada]

Could the Summerhill tracks be utilized instead? I know having the trains coming into Union would be ideal, but with such extreme cost and space parameters to get it into Union, could it make more sense to just build it at Summerhill? It could kick off a "Union North" and we could finally try to get GO Trains through midtown as well (a man can dream)

aaannd here we go again with summerhill I think urbansky is about to have an aneurysm

 

[reinventingthewheel]

Could the Summerhill tracks be utilized instead?

It’s not up for further discussion. Please do a search for Summerhill in this thread.

 

[Urban Sky]

Could the Summerhill tracks be utilized instead? I know having the trains coming into Union would be ideal, but with such extreme cost and space parameters to get it into Union, could it make more sense to just build it at Summerhill? It could kick off a "Union North" and we could finally try to get GO Trains through midtown as well (a man can dream)

aaannd here we go again with summerhill I think urbansky is about to have an aneurysm

It’s not up for further discussion. Please do a search for Summerhill in this thread.

Summerhill is a valid suggestion for an urban rail (GO/RER/ONxpress) relief route, but not for intercity rail (VIA/HFR/ALTO), for reasons which have indeed been discussed ad nausea here. I explicitly welcome such discussion, but only in the relevant threads (i.e., those dealing with urban rather than intercity rail topics)…

 

[Tunafish13]

Oh wow, I have not been keeping up with this thread enough it seems, a quick search gave me plenty of notes on why Summerhill doesnt work. Sorry to re-hash it and sorry if I triggered anyone lol.